RFC Europe -Art and Flags Thread

[jessiecat]

I'm bumping this thread up to reintroduce a topic I've mentioned before. Now that we're getting much closer to beta stage I'd like us to consider the issue of ethnically-flavoured units, starting with the Muslim civs. You'll see below pics and files for various cavalry and foot units which would be appropriate for the Arabs and Cordoba.
The first pic shows what I'm proposing for the Heavy Lancer (centre-right) and the Knight (centre-left). The rest show what Islamic spearmen, archers, longbowmen, pikemen and swordsmen could be like.
The last two pics show the Barbary pirates which operated out of bases in Tunis and Algiers and the typical Arab Xebec ship (holds 2 pirates) which could replace the Carrick.
What do people think of these? There are also files available for the Ottoman Turks, Kievan Rus and others when we are ready to implement them.

 

[Michael Vick]

I'm sure everybody approves of this, it's just a question of when it gets added. I think there's a new version coming out today, chances are olives won't be included, my Spanish, French, Italian, Arabic maps won't be included because micbic has gone AWOL, and the Atlantic islands are going to be left the same, this won't be included either. Maybe Alpha 6 will be really super amazing... Oh well, a man can dream.

Also, I would like to take this time to remind everybody of the conquistador-esque musketman unit we can use from Civ Colonization. Right now the Tercio unit looks quite ********.

 

[Cethegus]

One thing that bugged me in Varietas Delectat was that there were many models that shared the same base design. It's not fun commanding huge armies if the only difference in their appearance is what weapon they carry.

To this reason, I would really prefer the arabic spearman to be the uppermost one in second picture and pikeman being the one on the left in the fourth picture (even if it looked a little unrefined).

 

[3Miro]

I have to ask sedna when he is coming back. He has more experience with graphics and I would rather wait for him to add it.

 

[Michael Vick]

Is anything going to be done to make the "Burgundian" Charles V a little more Burgundian and less Spanish? I noticed this just now and if you take a closer look, jessiecat, you'll probably recognize it too but his background is the Palace of Charles V in the Alhambra complex of Granada.

 

[3Miro]

Is anything going to be done to make the "Burgundian" Charles V a little more Burgundian and less Spanish? I noticed this just now and if you take a closer look, jessiecat, you'll probably recognize it too but his background is the Palace of Charles V in the Alhambra complex of Granada.

As soon as you find a suitable leader for Burgundy, we will change Charles V.

 

[Michael Vick]

Why is Burgundy even in the mod? The first Kingdom of Burgundy existed before the mod's time frame, and the second Kingdom of Burgundy existed from 933 for about 400 years. They never really did much, they just stagnated and gradually lost territories. Most of the time they were ruled by Kings from other nations, until those kings ceased to practice the formality of calling themselves the "Kings of Arles", which was when whatever existed of Burgundy- stopped existing.

The later "Duchy of Burgundy" was never even fully independent, it was just a title. I think it would be much more fitting to have the civ as one or two indy cities or a minor civ like the pope. We'd shave off turns, loading time, and it would make room for the inclusion of a different civ. Maybe like a couple of minor civs or something.
(Candidates: Barbary pirates, knights of malta, aragon, scotland, novgorod)

 

[jessiecat]

I guess for the same reason we have the Kievan Rus, Cordoba, Genoa, the Norse, Bulgaria and even the Byzantines. None lasted the length of the mod and most not past 1200AD. Do you just want a mod comprised just of history's major players and noone else? This is alt-history afterall and its got to be open to a range of possible outcomes, doesn't it?

 

[3Miro]

Think about France expanding without any competition for several centuries very early on. Talk about a super power. Every one else has someone to keep them in check, and England comes too late to keep France under control.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So far we have not had a single-city challenge. I note that there is a spawn space in SW France that is free. Since 3Miro wants to include heresy in the mod and everybody agrees that France needs a little more challenge, AND the fact that people don't like France respawning even when it's never conquered Toulouse, how about a SCC based in Toulouse (if it's razed give the human a settler but don't allow them to build settlers) that spawns a little earlier (like 1000 instead of 1200) with a UP of the Cathars (heresy cannot be eradicated and has no effect on Faith Points), and the following UHVs:
1. Spread heresy to x% of population by year 1229 (Treaty of Paris)
2. Never declare war (their pacifism)
3. ?

 

[3Miro]

So far we have not had a single-city challenge. I note that there is a spawn space in SW France that is free. Since 3Miro wants to include heresy in the mod and everybody agrees that France needs a little more challenge, AND the fact that people don't like France respawning even when it's never conquered Toulouse, how about a SCC based in Toulouse (if it's razed give the human a settler but don't allow them to build settlers) that spawns a little earlier (like 1000 instead of 1200) with a UP of the Cathars (heresy cannot be eradicated and has no effect on Faith Points), and the following UHVs:
1. Spread heresy to x% of population by year 1229 (Treaty of Paris)
2. Never declare war (their pacifism)
3. ?

A civ right in the middle of the French core ..., this would be hell to balance. I would wait with civ inclusions until we have balanced the current game more.

I think many of those "minor" nations like Toulouse, the Scots, the Serbs, the Croats (Ragusa), could be represented by semi-random revolts. The city goes into revolt and if you don't bring x troops in it by three turns, it goes independent.

I am thinking about perhaps doing something similar to the general respawns, i.e. you get a chance to block the respawn as opposed to "Burgundy Respawns and you have to live with it".

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I also like the Barbary pirates idea (since the Mediterranean Sea was a much more dangerous place than it is in RFCE). They spawn relatively early on (9th century). Tunis, Algiers are already in place, you just need to fix a spawn date and give them Islam (hey, a 3rd Islamic country is always good). UP: Start at peace with barbs, gain XP whenever a barb wins a battle, and ships can turn into pirates and back at any time (hit the "blockade" button)
UHVs would have something to do with capturing coastal lands like Crete, Rhodes, Corsica and Sardinia, accumulating money and sinking ships.

 

[Michael Vick]

I also like the Barbary pirates idea (since the Mediterranean Sea was a much more dangerous place than it is in RFCE). They spawn relatively early on (9th century). Tunis, Algiers are already in place, you just need to fix a spawn date and give them Islam (hey, a 3rd Islamic country is always good). UP: Start at peace with barbs, gain XP whenever a barb wins a battle, and ships can turn into pirates and back at any time (hit the "blockade" button)
UHVs would have something to do with capturing coastal lands like Crete, Rhodes, Corsica and Sardinia, accumulating money and sinking ships.

And then we put in Knights of Malta to keep them in check!
How about this, all they get is a single city on Malta, with maybe Tripoli in the spawn zone, automatic founding of Knights Hospitaller, lots of gold, and loads of knights, swordsmen and cogges. It would be a civ with gameplay based purely on combat!
UP: Power of the Order: All units receive +2 exp, and 0 upkeep costs for units.
UHVs: 1. Never lose a city
2. Kill 20 Muslim (Ottoman, Arabian, Barbary) armies
3. Destroy 20 Muslim ships

 

[operafantom]

A quite strong Serbian independent city would be great against the overexpansion of Bulgaria, and anyway those territories are pretty empty in the game for a while.

 

[Myri]

The Galleas is a pain for the eyes, pls choose another model.

This special unit weakens Venzia, you don't get the needed Coggy but much later the useless Galleas; actually you don't get the Galleas at all with UHVs done earlier.

bye Myri

 

[jessiecat]

The Galleas is a pain for the eyes, pls choose another model.

This special unit weakens Venzia, you don't get the needed Coggy but much later the useless Galleas; actually you don't get the Galleas at all with UHVs done earlier.

bye Myri

The galleas would be fine if it was 50% in size and could hold 2 troops. Same as the carrack which it replaces.

 

[Michael Vick]

The pirates should probably eventually make it out to Tripoli as well, right?
Also, I don't know about giving them caravels, that wouldn't look very historical IMO.
The Mediterranean needs to see more fighting with galley-type ships. Right now most early sea combat starts to take place after galleys and triremes have become outdated, and is ted by cogs. Cogs were used for a period in the Northern seas, in areas like England, Scandinavia and Northern Germany and France. We all know that the massive Genoese Cog fleet that develops at around 1400 is rather inaccurate.

We should break up the galleys and triremes into more units. My suggestion:

Light Galley - 1 strength, 5 movement. Barbary Pirates replace it with the "Fusta", +1 movement. (Mediterranean civs only)
Galley - 2 strength, 4 movement. 2 cargo Space.
War Galley - 3 strength, 4 movement. Norse replace it with longship, +1 movement, +2 Cargo Space. English, Dutch, Germans, Polish, Russians, Swedish get "Cog", -1 strength, +2 Cargo Space
Galleass - Made available to all civs, 6 strength, 3 movement (significantly high production cost) Venetians get "Venetian Galleass", +1 movement, strength 1 promotion. Barbary Pirates and Cordoba get "Xebec", +2 movement. English, Dutch, Germans, Polish, Russians, Swedish get "Heavy Cog", -2 strength, +1 movement +2 cargo space, Norse get Longship again.
(Trireme eliminated, they stopped being used some time after the Peloponesian War)
Carrack - 6 strength, 7 movement, 3 cargo space, +50% movement cost on coast
Caravel - 3 strength, 9 movement, 2 cargo space, +50% movement cost on coast
Privateer - 6 strength, 8 movement, +100% movement cost on coast, privateer ability
Galleon - 8 strength, 7 movement, 4 cargo space, +100% movement cost on coast. Dutch get "Fluyt", -1 strength, +1 movement
Frigate - 8 strength, 8 movement, +100% movement cost on coast
Ship of the Line - 10 strength, 7 movement, +100% movement cost on coast
Eliminate War Galleon?

Light Galley allowed from the beginning,
Galley enabled by Classical Knowledge
War Galley/Cog enabled by Lateen Sails
Galleass/Heavy Cog enabled by new tech, "Naval Artillery", tech will also give all pre-Galleas units +1 strength
Optics will not enable caravel
Carrack and Caravel enabled by new tech, "Advanced Sailing", will have all the same benefits as shipbuilding, tech will also give +1 trade routes to coastal cities and reveal Atlantic Access
Astronomy will be replaced by shipbuilding, providing all the same benefits of Astronomy except for AA. Will lead to trading company and not scientific method.
Astronomy will allow observatories, give great scholar to first to discover, lead to scientific method
Ship of the line will be allowed by Military tactics

The production and maintenance costs for navies will both have to be reduced in general, to provide for bigger navies.

With these changes, galleys will remain very formidable units at least in the Mediterranean, and will probably continue to be produced well into the 1600's. They should start to become obsolete with the introduction of the carrack, but still be large in number.

 

[jessiecat]

The right idea but far too many unit types for a limited amount of promotions. It also heavily depends on suitable art being available. I'll look into it and come back with a much simpler plan tomorrow.

 

[3Miro]

The right idea but far too many unit types for a limited amount of promotions. It also heavily depends on suitable art being available. I'll look into it and come back with a much simpler plan tomorrow.

I agree. We are working on a Pangaea type of a map with pretty much all of the action happening on the land. We should have ships for the Mediterranean and some for the northern seas, but overall, we should have only very few ships. Of 20 ship types, even if one plays Venice and Genoa, one would not build 4 - 5 types max.

I think it is appropriate to have two ships for each era (Early, High, Late Middle Ages, Renaissance and what was the last one), one transport ship and one combat ship (i.e. Galley and Trireme early on and Galleon + Frigate for the Colonial Age).

 

[Michael Vick]

I agree. We are working on a Pangaea type of a map with pretty much all of the action happening on the land. We should have ships for the Mediterranean and some for the northern seas, but overall, we should have only very few ships. Of 20 ship types, even if one plays Venice and Genoa, one would not build 4 - 5 types max.

I think it is appropriate to have two ships for each era (Early, High, Late Middle Ages, Renaissance and what was the last one), one transport ship and one combat ship (i.e. Galley and Trireme early on and Galleon + Frigate for the Colonial Age).

Take out the light galley, and maybe the war galley, but the trireme has to stay out.