RFC Europe -Art and Flags Thread

[sedna17]

I'm going to continue the discussion of naval units here, partly because of the discussion already started by jessiecat and Michael Vick and partly because we might want some modified boat models/art.

To me, the most difficult part of the boat equation is to get the correct balance between Mediterranean and "northern" ships in the early period of our mod. You guys have put out two different plans for how to deal with this that involve restricting ships to given Civs. That's certainly a possibility, but it strikes me as less than ideal. The problem is that many Civs (France, Burgundy, Spain, Germany are probably the main ones) could under normal or plausible scenarios have cities on both the north atlantic and the Mediterranean.

The fundamental reason for the Cog-style ship supplanting the galley in northern europe were the different ocean conditions. Perhaps we could use this idea to encourage the right boat in the right situation. My idea would be to increase the amount of ocean tiles present in the Baltic and give the Cog ocean-access while decreasing the amount of ocean in the Mediterranean. That's early for "real" ocean access, but on our map, that's not a huge problem because (outside of Greenland) the map is all accessible before real ocean-going ships anyway.

The Cog and the galley would have comparable stats. The cog would be a bit more expensive, but its (effective) better speed in northern Europe (thanks to be able to go through ocean tiles at double-speed rather than forced around them) would make it worthwhile. The biggest problem with this general approach is that a lot of the Scandanavia/Baltic area is not very wide, and ocean tiles right next to land look funny/bad. Still, there are some tiles that can be changed, and some minor coast changes could also (in theory) be made, though I hate changing land tiles (so much work if we have to update maps).

 

[Flying Pig]

You could make a new kind of tile, which looks like shallow water but acts like ocean, and use it in scandinavia. I would make that cold-sea, and say that mediterranian ships get a penalty in it, but they are stronger

 

[jessiecat]

I still maintain that the basic cog should be confined to northern waters and the galley to the Med. Neither could navigate far beyond shore so basically one is just the regional variation of the other. In that I agree with Michael, for historical reasons if nothing else. Once you upgrade to caravels and carracks regional variations don't matter. One type can fit all civs. What I was arguing for was a Muslim replacement for the carrack, ie the xebec. Venice already has the galleass. So could Genoa and the Byzantines. Coding in a separate ship type with similiar specs for a couple of civs can't be that hard. No harder than UUs I imagine.

 

[sedna17]

Flying Pig, your suggestion of a third sea type is a good possibility though I worry that it might be an unnecessary complication to solve a relatively minor problem.

Jessiecat, I guess I'm philosophically opposed to creating a proliferation of different, specialized ship types based on Civ. I have no problem with providing distinct _art_ for the Muslim carrack (when we get to increasing the ethnic art), but I'd prefer not to give them an actual different unit. I realize that I did this for the mounted sargent/horse archer thing, but I sort of regret that decision. It just makes the mod too hard for a new person to play if they're constantly discovering that the old unit progression is skewed.

Wouldn't it be a more elegant (and historical) solution to have ship classes available to build everywhere, but construct the game in such a way as to favor mimicry of history (more galleys in the Mediterranean, more cogs in the north)?

BTW: I'm basing my thoughts about medieval ships mainly on the Wikipedia articles and this essay http://users.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/florilegium/popdef14.html

 

[embryodead]

Good to see the Trireme go! I was just going to complain about it

Galleass was a pure warship and as such, "War Galleass" is redundant. It certainly shouldn't be the top transport because it was the Mediterranean ship-of-the-line with broadside cannons. Given it's minor historical role, are 3 versions really necessary?

Xebec was in use in 17-18th c.

"Great Galley" is an actual ship type that appears in texts, e.g. Venetians used Great Galleys for transport and light galleys for war. It is handy if you need a Mediterranean transport equivalent of cog, assuming the basic galley is for everyone.

The same simple tree by jessiecat but with the two fixes and cog/galley differentiation (whatever way it's done) would look like this:

Galley -> Cog / Great Galley -> Carrack -> Galleon

---> War Galley -> Caravel (+Galleass) -> Frigate / Privateer / Xebec

Two warships (no troops): Caravel - small, fast, ocean-going and Galleass - slow and powerful (and no Galleass -> Frigate upgrade).

Another way to deal with the cog issue is to just call it a roundship - the general term for any big, round transport used in both waters. Cog is technically a specific type of a roundship suited for Northern seas. Alternatively, roundship could be the fifth, pre-cog class of transports if you ever need it.

 

[jessiecat]

I like your idea with one small change. The war galley just replaces the trireme and upgrades to the caravel and the galleas for all civs.The galley upgrades to the cog for all civs. My only change would have the privateer coming before the frigate as now but represented by the xebec art for the Muslim civs and the Barbary pirates only.
Like this:

Galley>>>>>>>>>Cog>>>>>>>>>Carrack>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Galleon

War Galley\upgrades to>>>>>>>Caravel
...............\and
.................\Galleas>>>>>Privateeer or Xebec>>>>>>Frigate

That way, in the late game, all civs will be able to build one type of transport ship, one warship and a fast exploring ship that can only carry merchants, priests etc.

How's that for a compromise Sedna?

 

[merijn_v1]

I found a very good art for the Belem Tower. But is it big enough or should it be bigger.

 

[jessiecat]

I found a very good art for the Belem Tower. But is it big enough or should it be bigger.

That's great. Better than we've got now.

 

[merijn_v1]

That's great. Better than we've got now.

I know. That's why I posted it.

 

[Michael Vick]

@ Jessiecat: I'd really like a naval scheme that doesn't involve the Mediterranean civs building cogs, just a request.

I'm not sure if any one working with us is capable of this, but I had an idea. I was thinking it would be nice to have a special kind of "forest" tile for the Southern Coasts. It would be like the current light forest, but with less overall trees and a mix of palm trees that could be taken from the silk art. It'd be placed around the coasts of the Mediterranean, and in Egypt, the Middle East. It'd be a nice change of scenery, wouldn't it? Can it be done/found?

 

[jessiecat]

@ Jessiecat: I'd really like a naval scheme that doesn't involve the Mediterranean civs building cogs, just a request.

I'm not sure if any one working with us is capable of this, but I had an idea. I was thinking it would be nice to have a special kind of "forest" tile for the Southern Coasts. It would be like the current light forest, but with less overall trees and a mix of palm trees that could be taken from the silk art. It'd be placed around the coasts of the Mediterranean, and in Egypt, the Middle East. It'd be a nice change of scenery, wouldn't it? Can it be done/found?

So would I. But Sedna won't do it. Anyway, are you saying that France and Spain can build only the war galley in Mediterranean ports and the cog in northern waters? And neither are allowed to travel in the other ocean? That's impossible without some kind of toll gate at Gibraltar. Cogs should be the cargo ship and the war galley as the naval vessel for everybody. Everyone else agrees with that, I think.

 

[sedna17]

So would I. But Sedna won't do it. Anyway, are you saying that France and Spain can build only the war galley in Mediterranean ports and the cog in northern waters? And neither are allowed to travel in the other ocean? That's impossible without some kind of toll gate at Gibraltar. Cogs should be the cargo ship and the war galley as the naval vessel for everybody. Everyone else agrees with that, I think.

A fair description of the consensus, although you make me sound like a harsh parent.

It's simply wrong to say that galleys and cogs (or ships like cogs) were confined to the mediterranean and the north atlantic respectively. Roundships (sailing ships) were an important component of the merchant fleet in the Mediterranean.

 

[jessiecat]

A fair description of the consensus, although you make me sound like a harsh parent.

It's simply wrong to say that galleys and cogs (or ships like cogs) were confined to the mediterranean and the north atlantic respectively. Roundships (sailing ships) were an important component of the merchant fleet in the Mediterranean.

I didn't mean to make you sound that way. Anyway you're not the old grandad here. I have that honour.

 

[Michael Vick]

Ok so what if we didn't call them cogs but something more generic? Any more feedback on the coastal forest idea?

 

[jessiecat]

Ok so what if we didn't call them cogs but something more generic? Any more feedback on the coastal forest idea?

Cog, round ship or cargo boat. What's the difference? The name doesn't really matter.

 

[Michael Vick]

Cogs had lateen sails, our art does not. So that's why it should be less specific.

 

[jessiecat]

Cogs had lateen sails, our art does not. So that's why it should be less specific.

I think you're confused. Read the wiki article. Cogs generally had "a single mast with a square-rigged sail".
Just like in this illustration.

 

[Michael Vick]

Yes, I'm confused, for some reason the tech that allows the cog is "Lateen Sails"

 

[embryodead]

Hey I've got 2 LH suggestions:

Dutch dude from C4Col on the left - he looks like a sneaky Italian bastard to me, perfect for Simone Boccanegra which atm is Alexander the Great... If he's too much like William of Orange, there are 2 more new Firaxis-quality Dutch heads in C4Col.

Modified Indris II (background & "de-yellowed" face) - as non-Ottoman Abd-al-Rahman III.

Also, there's a problem with Gustavus' eyelashes (at least here they're PINK) - to fix it you only need to copy "eyeshadow.dds" file from another leaderhead (most have them) to Gustavus' folder.

 

[Cethegus]

Good suggestions, embryodead. I recall Dutch King even being used as Lorenzo de Medici in Thomas' War mod. Obviously someone else has thought similiarly.

However, I believe there would be some legal issues to use the said art from Colonization. Not sure would it still apply if the LH was fiddled around with, as it was in your preview picture. (Personally, I would prefer either the original Dutch King art or the tweaked version if the art files ended up being usable.)