RFC Europe - Buildings Thread

[sedna17]

This is a little off-topic for the building thread, but...

It's hard to say if this sort of behavior could be something we introduced, or just a normal example of poor AI decision making. It is possible that there are some inappropriate iPower and iAsset values on units that could cause the AI to misestimate it's strength; it's also possible that some units have incorrectly assigned AI_ACTIONS causing the AI to think that they should be using units for the wrong purpose. As always, if you see something whacky, try to provide a savegame file. We can take a look at what the AI is thinking and try to figure out what's going on.

I think the problem is the AI. For example in my latest England game I conquered northern France and was about to take Paris, I noticed that France had a huge stack in Bordeux, something like 10 knights 4 terbs and 6 or so Foot soldiers (the ones with 7 STR and 20% city attack I think). France could easily use this stack to take back it's cities but it chose to keep it there and let itself collapse after I took Paris.

 

[Panopticon]

It's probably a general rather than unit-specific problem, because I observed the same thing playing as Cordoba versus both Spain and Portugal; each had a stack with several different types of unit in total, but each kept it immobile.

Attached is a late example. There is an immobile stack of Spanish Guisarmes near Independent Pamplona.

 

[sedna17]

Time to resurrect this thread...

I've been thinking again about way to improve the buildings in this mod, which I'm still not happy with. Numerous thoughts here, but I'll just list a few.

We have more "regular" buildings than BTS, and many more religious buildings. This sort of clutters up the building choices. We could easily prune some buildings (Toll house? Herbalist? Grocer?, yes, I do hate health)

A lot of buildings aren't compelling for the price.

Some of the Building A is required for Building B links are annoying. The Market isn't that useful, but is required for useful buildings.

Castles and Cathedrals should be more awesome. I want to build these in a medieval mod because they are fun, but they should be valuable enough.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Castles are a waste in RL if you are safe from attacks, so a civ like England doesn't need it in its island cities, France however would need it if the AI was more aggressive. So once the pacifist AI problem is fixed castles will be useful.

Cathedrals should definitely be more useful, perhaps the belfry building should be removed and its effects added to the cathedral? Because when you have a cathedral you'll probably build it and the other buildings which require a cathedral anyway.

I think the building links are OK, at least at the start, I mean it seems realistic that early France first builds markets and then more advanced buildings, but maybe later on markets should be obsolete and replaced with a better building, with the same tech also making all buildings which require markets, not require a market anymore?

 

[Morholt]

Castles are useful enough for the trade route, especially if you have stone. When running Manorialism, it means the difference between 1 and 0 trade routes.

 

[sedna17]

I agree that the castle trade route makes them not completely useless. They also get under Fedual Monarchy. Still... I was thinking about shifting the +1 stability bonus from the courthouse to the castle. Castles were centers of administration too -- used to consolidate holding/keep down rebellion and that sort of thing that's plausibly under stability in our mod.

Of course, for some weak kings, independent lords in their castles were a de-stabilizing force.

But courthouses are still valuable buildings without the stability bonus.

 

[BurnEmDown]

How about the castles' effects would be dynamic according to your overall stability?
So for example if your civ is doing good stability-wise more castles would help, no lord would think of breaking off! But if later on your stability will fall, another lord might try and act to gain independence from you, reducing your stability.
That would of course weaken the castle, so this effect could be added only if the castle is strong enough to take that risk.
In Rise of Mankind a castle increases your maintenance costs and give an extra trade route, but also enable several buildings, like a moat or other defensive structures. This could be incorporated with several of the military buildings already in RFCE, like the archery range or the siege-related one. Now that I think of it it would be kinda similar to M:TW2, where you need to choose whether you want a city or a castle, where a castle or fort is better at creating troops, while a city or town is better economically.

 

[Daffy]

I like the idea of possible defensive upgrades to castles. Have a few ideas to throw in as well.
Maybe defensive towers as upgrade to castles, giving a % defensive bonus, additional first strike to archer units or so.
The dungeon could come in allot earlier requiring a courthouse and castle or so. Certainly wasn't something invented in the 1600's
Manor house requiring a castle possibly or other way around.
Blacksmith adding Combat I to units built in the city.
How about adding a trade route to the harbor? Thus making coastal cities somewhat more important.
The portuguese UB (feitoria) which replaces the customs house is pretty much useless imo. For 1 it requires economics to build which is so far down the research tree that you probably never really build one and even if you do, they won't really make much of a difference when it comes to your UHV. I'm not sure about this, since i've never built one in rfce but didn't the +100% foreign trade route yield on the customs house (feitoria) only apply to intercontinental trade routes?
I'd like to change the feitoria to something allot earlier, like the harbor or lighthouse. And instead of +1 commerce on water +1 hammer or maybe both

And I know it's the wrong thread, but faster ship production when timber available maybe?

 

[sedna17]

I think making the castle a prereq for archery range and (moved-earlier) dungeon is a good idea. I think that situational stability bonus might be too complicated.

What about cathedrals? I thought perhaps they could give a free priest specialist (think of him as the bishop, or whatever). Is that enough to make them useful?

 

[Steb]

I don't know how many faith points cathedrals do give at the moment, but I believe it should be substantially more than smaller buildings.

Also, all religious buildings should probably have in their description "+ X Faith points if State religion is Y."

 

[Issos]

What about cathedrals? I thought perhaps they could give a free priest specialist (think of him as the bishop, or whatever). Is that enough to make them useful?

Almost . Cathedrals were not only cultural and religious centres, but also scientific and political. I think joining bonuses from scriptorium'd be ok. Also, cathedral granted independece of the local Church from bishops abroad. If not stability bonus, then perhaps something like "city with cathedral won't revolt and join indies".

 

[BurnEmDown]

I think a "cities with cathedrals won't revolt" is too strong, but less chance of revolt could work (without affecting your overall stability).

If it won't be too much like M:TW2, perhaps Castles could increase maintenance a lot, but also give you the ability to build strong military buildings, so that you'd have to choose which cities will be your military cities and which will be your economical cities.

 

[merijn_v1]

The portuguese UB (feitoria) which replaces the customs house is pretty much useless imo. For 1 it requires economics to build which is so far down the research tree that you probably never really build one and even if you do, they won't really make much of a difference when it comes to your UHV. I'm not sure about this, since i've never built one in rfce but didn't the +100% foreign trade route yield on the customs house (feitoria) only apply to intercontinental trade routes?
I'd like to change the feitoria to something allot earlier, like the harbor or lighthouse. And instead of +1 commerce on water +1 hammer or maybe both

And I know it's the wrong thread, but faster ship production when timber available maybe?

The Feitoria shouldn't get extra production on water. The Dike already has that bonus and IMO it also fits better to them. I propose they have the same power (+ 100% trade route yeild and 1 on water tiles) and become earlier. I think trading companies is a good tech, because the Feitorias were build to help the explorers and traders during the colonial age.

 

[ezzlar]

Religious buildings are already very useful. Specially with all the wonder bonuses. And of course faith points. But they should also give stability.

Military buildings I would like something like barracks -> manor house -> estate -> castle. Castle should give stability. Remove stability from courthouse and watch tower.

How about making the military units requiring barracks, archery range, manor house, castle (footmen, archers, macemen, knights)?

We could also remove defence from castle and manor house and replace it with walls, moat, fortification or something?

Some buildings should be removed. Brewery, weavery, tannery, cath church school to name a few.

 

[Daffy]

The Feitoria shouldn't get extra production on water. The Dike already has that bonus and IMO it also fits better to them. I propose they have the same power (+ 100% trade route yeild and 1 on water tiles) and become earlier. I think trading companies is a good tech, because the Feitorias were build to help the explorers and traders during the colonial age.

The Dike isn't the only one with that bonus, the Shrine of Uppsala has it too. At least for water tiles, not sure about rivers.
The reason for the idea was to somehow push production in those utterly unproductive island cities.
The Dike effect would possibly be a bit too extreme, but the idea was to somehow get the feeling that you're actually getting somewhere in these types of cities. Maybe you like it that way, maybe you don't. But I find the idea, of having utterly unproductive/useless cities that take over a hundred years to get it's production rate from miserable to bad, in-compelling at best.
If a coastal city doesn't offer hills, forests or possibly bonus production resources it plain sucks. At least until you have a blacksmith & guild hall and are running 3 engineers. And even then it's still nothing to get exited about really.
Trading Companies would also be a too late tech for it to have any real impact on things. In the last game I won with Portugal, I only researched trading companies so I could build my 5. & 6. colonial project. I couldn't have cared less about the bonus that a feitoria might provide even if I would have had been able to build them from that point on. And there still is the issue about the 'foreign' trade route part.
Most of these spots offer you something like 2-3 hammers in production, since you don't start with a blacksmith the best you can do is run 'citizens' or possibly priests if you're running religious law. Either way the production will be slow at best. 75 turns for a blacksmith or guild hall.. i dunno...
In rfc additional buildings were added to newly founded cities after a certain tech was developed or also depending on the starting date.
The starting date does influence this in a minor way. I think a granary, herbalist, barracks a possibly a fourth building max.

Some other ideas on that issue.
Possibly adding a blacksmith to the newly founded cities buildings list at some point?
Lowering the cost of the guild hall?
Adding a few hammers to Christian buildings like in rfc 2 hammers per monastery, church, cathedral?
Some additional effect to an existing building only available in coastal cities i.e. allowing 1 engineer or 1-2 free hammers to a harbor and/or lighthouse.
Earlier Feitoria (available with Shipbuilding, which is also when you get carracks which allow you to settle overseas) allowing you to run an engineer or a free engineer.
I know that there is also the possibility of running limited monarchy and buying those buildings. But for one it isn't exactly one of the earliest techs and secondly it's allot of money you'd have to invest.

 

[merijn_v1]

The Dike isn't the only one with that bonus, the shrine of uppsala has it too. At least for water tiles, not sure about rivers.
The reason for the idea was to somehow push production in those island cities.
Most of these spots offer you something like 2-3 hammers in production, since you don't start with a blacksmith the best you can do is run 'citizens' or possibly priests if you're running religious law. Either way the production will be slow at best. 75 turns for a blacksmith or guild hall.. i dunno...
In rfc additional buildings were added to newly founded cities after a certain tech was developed or also depending on the starting date.
The starting date does influence this in a minor way. I think a granary, herbalist, barracks a possibly a fourth building max. Possibly adding a blacksmith to the newly founded cities buildings list at some point? Or lowering the cost of the guild hall?
I know there is also the possibility of running limited monarchy and buying those buildings. But for one it isn't exactly one of the earliest techs and secondly it's allot of money you'd have to invest.
Maybe you like it that way, maybe you don't. But I find the idea, of having utterly unproductive/useless cities that take over a hundred years to get it's production rate from miserable to bad, in-compelling at best.
If a coastal city doesn't offer hills, forests or possibly bonus production resources it plain sucks.

I didn't say the Dike is the ONLY building with that power, but it is an UB with that power. If you have to UBs with the same power, it isn't realy an UNIQUE Building. BTW, the Shrine of Upsalla is a wonder, that doesn't count in this case. Otherwise the Feitoria shouldn't get +1 on sea tiles either, because the Belem Tower also has extra on sea tiles.
You are not restricted to build on those islands. If you want a big production, don't settle their but somewhere else. I agree those cities are unproductive, but Ponta Delgada in vanilla RFC is of that kind of city to. It also makes the UHV also a bit harder and we want that, because most current UHVs are too easy. And IF an other civ wants to build a city their (except the Dutch), they also don't have the extra production. I don't think you completly need to change the UB just because there is no production on some island where it isn't necessary to settle. (Except for the UHV, but as I said, it makes it more harder/challenging)

An other option is to give Portugal a total new UB. (or just the name/art and the building holds it powers) Europe doesn't realy have Feitorias. All of them are build along the colonial trade routes, certainly not in Europe. So I think they aren't appropriate to RFCE.

 

[sedna17]

Duly noted about lack of production buildings on island cities. I'll see which of your suggestions are best, but I don't like making the Feitoria too similar to the dike, so we'll go with merijn_v1's suggestion for that building.

Religious buildings are already very useful. Specially with all the wonder bonuses. And of course faith points. But they should also give stability.

In a way many of them do give stability, since increasing happiness in your cities improves your stability. I think giving not allowing cathedral cities to declare independence wouldn't be too powerful. You can only build them in 1/4 of cities (unless you're spreading multiple religions.

Military buildings I would like something like barracks -> manor house -> estate -> castle. Castle should give stability. Remove stability from courthouse and watch tower.

How about making the military units requiring barracks, archery range, manor house, castle (footmen, archers, macemen, knights)?

We could also remove defence from castle and manor house and replace it with walls, moat, fortification or something?

Making little buildings which add something onto the main building are sort of annoying IMHO. I know I did this with the religious buildings, but it still annoys me to actually play with it and I'm thinking of simplifying/reducing the religious buildings a bit too.

I thought about making units require buildings. I guess this is prevalent in Fall From Heaven, and it plays alright. I don't know if the AI will deal with it very well, and it's a pain to test. Maybe we could just limit the most powerful units...

Some buildings should be removed. Brewery, weavery, tannery, cath church school to name a few.

Is the problem with the buildings themselves or because they are too weak for the cost?

 

[Daffy]

delete

 

[Daffy]

delete

 

[Morholt]

I think most of the "second-tier" religious buildings could be merged with the first tier ones. If you built a monastery, you would probably have a scriptorium in it from the start. And I've never seen a cathedral without a belfry.

Perhaps the cathedrals should give some kind of local faith point bonus? Like, protestant cathedrals give science, catholic ones wealth, and orthodox stability?