RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[AbsintheRed]

Hey 3Miro!
Checked your latest changes on the svn
Why is it good to have so many wonders tied to a state religion?
I can understand a few where it is really important, but this looks way too much for me
You added state religion requirement to 14 wonders!

 

[merijn_v1]

Not realy. It are just 6 wonders. The rest are monasteries and other religious buildings.

 

[3Miro]

Hey 3Miro!
Checked your latest changes on the svn
Why is it good to have so many wonders tied to a state religion?
I can understand a few where it is really important, but this looks way too much for me
You added state religion requirement to 14 wonders!

Everything already required the religion, I just made it so that it requires state religion. The 4 knight orders (corporations), monasteries and cathedrals, Pope's Palace, Dome of the Rock, Round Church, St. Sofia, Karak de....

 

[AbsintheRed]

Wait, so I cannot build monasteries or cathedrals if they are not of my state religion, even if I have that religion in my city?
That sounds quite ahistorical...

 

[3Miro]

Wait, so I cannot build monasteries or cathedrals if they are not of my state religion, even if I have that religion in my city?
That sounds quite ahistorical...

You can still build churches, just not monasteries and cathedrals. I just don't see an Orthodox building a Catholic monastery or a Catholic building a Protestant Cathedral.

 

[AbsintheRed]

On second thought, cathedrals are probably fine. They were such a huge effort after all, it wasn't like a small town decided: I will build my religion's cathedral tomorrow, even if it's not the state religion of my country

But I'm still against doing this with monasteries, there are plenty of examples for this throughout history.

 

[3Miro]

On second thought, cathedrals are probably fine. They were such a huge effort after all, it wasn't like a small town decided: I will build my religion's cathedral tomorrow, even if it's not the state religion of my country

But I'm still against doing this with monasteries, there are plenty of examples for this throughout history.

You mean a government (i.e. some King) spending money to build and support another religion's monastery. I am not talking about conquering a city and not destroying the monastery, I mean actually building one.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I don't think there should be much difference between building non state religion churches and monasteries.
Still seem reasonable to me to be able to build all religion's monasteries, not just the churches.

But I'm really curious to hear some other opinions too, maybe I'm all alone on this...

 

[Leoreth]

I didn't want to fall in here, but I agree. One shouldn't view every building order as "the king orders the city to build this building" - that becomes rather silly when considering buildings like Inns or Smokehouses. It's rather left to the local authorities to decide these things.

Also, I can't see how you reasonably want to portray a multireligious HRE for instance, without allowing to build religious buildings from both Catholicism and Protestantism.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I didn't want to fall in here, but I agree. One shouldn't view every building order as "the king orders the city to build this building" - that becomes rather silly when considering buildings like Inns or Smokehouses. It's rather left to the local authorities to decide these things.

Also, I can't see how you reasonably want to portray a multireligious HRE for instance, without allowing to build religious buildings from both Catholicism and Protestantism.

Great!
But just to be clear, you say all religious buildings should be allowed when the religion is present in the city?
Even cathedrals?

 

[The Turk]

Also, I can't see how you reasonably want to portray a multireligious HRE for instance, without allowing to build religious buildings from both Catholicism and Protestantism.

Well, it really should happen, "Whose Realm, His Religion" (or however the Peace of Augusburg (1555) went), so the HRE really should get a very special role in this game, and it would be cool to show certain events unique to certain civilizations like Pepin's defense of Rome from the Barbarians, or the investure crisis between the HRE and the Pope; and of course the Great Schism, forming two Popes in Avignon and in Rome. These are central events which are missing, and I think this is especially due to the fact that the HRE is not properly represented, and if you can, having "no-state" religion would probably be best (it could be the German UP, that with "no-state religion" you get a certain happiness bonus or whatever).

Also why did you guys leave out Prussia?

And finally, please add 1-2 more Islamic Missionaries to the Ottoman spawn, (I hope this dosen't make me sound like an "online" jihadist ) I don't know if this has been fixed in Beta 4, but it was a problem earlier. Or even better, I would recommend having Islam just roll over Anatolia, kind of like it does in SoI, where it is programmed to spread during the Turkish invasions.

And upping the Sultanate of Rum horse archer invasions of the center of Byzantium would be good, as currently I feel its too easy to defend from them.

I'll talk about the Crusades later, once I actually get around to playing Beta 4

But good job so far, I like the changes made in Beta 4, especially now that England will capture Dublin

 

[3Miro]

Also, I can't see how you reasonably want to portray a multireligious HRE for instance, without allowing to build religious buildings from both Catholicism and Protestantism.

You are making it sound like the player will only have one type of religious buildings in their empire. This is not the case.

- You will get other religious buildings from conquered cities and you will keep those (unless you decide to prosecute them)
- You can still build Temples, this restriction refers only to Monasteries (and hence missionaries and the ability to spread a non-state religion manually)
- Non-state religions can still spread (unless you are running appropriate civic)
- During the Reformation, not all buildings convert. You will get both Protestant and Catholic buildings all over your empire and they will stay there (unless you prosecute)

I just don't see the king building a non-state religion building and I don't see a bunch of Catholics going over to an Orthodox country and putting a monastery there.

 

[Leoreth]

For an accurate protrayal of the HRE as it is represented in RFCE, I see no other solution than to allow Cathedrals as well, although 3Miro's point about why the Monarch should care has more grounds in this case.

I also don't know how the situation in Poland was, it's known for its relative tolerance on Orthodoxy, but I don't know how that translated into cathedral building.

Edit due to crosspost:
Well again, it's not necessarily the king who issues these buildings, especially not in the HRE, where religious issues were settled to be in the princes' authority. And the position of protestant/catholic buildings was not set into stone right after the Reformation, there was quite a fluctuation due to acquisitions and counter-reformation.

And there won't be "some Catholics going over" - they are already part of your empire! Look at Poland-Lithuania: it controlled quite a lot mainly Orthodox cities, which have always been Orthodox from the start. Why shouldn't the king prohibit them from building their monasteries? He could be striving for religious unity, of course, but then he would go prosecuting them, not only denying them their monasteries.

In short: this is taking away a decision from the player that historical rulers also were able to make.

 

[3Miro]

Great Schism, forming two Popes in Avignon and in Rome.

The Great Schism in Christianity refers to the split between Orthodox and Catholic, which is represented int he game. I agree that HRE doesn't have good representation yet.

On the Islamic point, the Ottomans now start with Islam as a state religion. This should help.

 

[merijn_v1]

Well, it really should happen, "Whose Realm, His Religion" (or however the Peace of Augusburg (1555) went), so the HRE really should get a very special role in this game, and it would be cool to show certain events unique to certain civilizations like Pepin's defense of Rome from the Barbarians, or the investure crisis between the HRE and the Pope; and of course the Great Schism, forming two Popes in Avignon and in Rome. These are central events which are missing, and I think this is especially due to the fact that the HRE is not properly represented, and if you can, having "no-state" religion would probably be best (it could be the German UP, that with "no-state religion" you get a certain happiness bonus or whatever).

Also why did you guys leave out Prussia?

And finally, please add 1-2 more Islamic Missionaries to the Ottoman spawn, (I hope this dosen't make me sound like an "online" jihadist ) I don't know if this has been fixed in Beta 4, but it was a problem earlier. Or even better, I would recommend having Islam just roll over Anatolia, kind of like it does in SoI, where it is programmed to spread during the Turkish invasions.

And upping the Sultanate of Rum horse archer invasions of the center of Byzantium would be good, as currently I feel its too easy to defend from them.

I'll talk about the Crusades later, once I actually get around to playing Beta 4

But good job so far, I like the changes made in Beta 4, especially now that England will capture Dublin

I agree that the HRE should get a bonus, but I think that it doesn't have to be just for the Germans. IMO, it would be nice if Burgundy or another catholic civ can claim the title. (A bit like the Mandate of Heaven in RFCA)

We left out Prussia for several reasons. They don't have much space to build up an empire. Also, we already have a civ in Germany, those civs would become too close too eachother. And the most important one, there is no room for more civs. There are already more civs than vanilla RFC. It would slow down the game too much.

I agree that the Ottomans should get more missionaries.
EDIT: Forgot that the Turks start with Islam as state civic, so the extra missionaries aren't necessarry anymore.

Isn't the Sultanate of Rum already represented by the Seljuk invasion?

 

[AbsintheRed]

You are making it sound like the player will only have one type of religious buildings in their empire. This is not the case.

- You will get other religious buildings from conquered cities and you will keep those (unless you decide to prosecute them)
- You can still build Temples, this restriction refers only to Monasteries (and hence missionaries and the ability to spread a non-state religion manually)
- Non-state religions can still spread (unless you are running appropriate civic)
- During the Reformation, not all buildings convert. You will get both Protestant and Catholic buildings all over your empire and they will stay there (unless you prosecute)

I just don't see the king building a non-state religion building and I don't see a bunch of Catholics going over to an Orthodox country and putting a monastery there.

Oh so you want this mainly the prevent additional religion spread?
But you can still build missionaries without monastery with Organized Religion, so the religions will spread no matter what - and it's totally fine IMO

And I don't see if there is a catholic community in an orthodox country they won't build a monastery and other religious buildings there
Only the cathedral may be an exception IMO

 

[Leoreth]

The Great Schism in Christianity refers to the split between Orthodox and Catholic, which is represented int he game. I agree that HRE doesn't have good representation yet.

He's referring to the (Great) Western Schism.

 

[3Miro]

And I don't see if there is a catholic community in an orthodox country they won't build a monastery and other religious buildings there
Only the cathedral may be an exception IMO

They will build a Church not a monastery. Monasteries take land, a Church is just a small building. Churches live off donations by the people going there, monasteries are supported by government/central church authority.

 

[AbsintheRed]

And there won't be "some Catholics going over" - they are already part of your empire! Look at Poland-Lithuania: it controlled quite a lot mainly Orthodox cities, which have always been Orthodox from the start. Why shouldn't the king prohibit them from building their monasteries? He could be striving for religious unity, of course, but then he would go prosecuting them, not only denying them their monasteries.

In short: this is taking away a decision from the player that historical rulers also were able to make.

I totally agree with this
We shouldn't force the players to that
I personally don't like to prosecute my cities if they have both catholicism and orthodoxy in them, rather let them build both religions buildings
Same for cath. and prot. of course

Many historic rulers also chose this way

 

[3Miro]

I totally agree with this
We shouldn't force the players to that
I personally don't like to prosecute my cities if they have both catholicism and orthodoxy in them, rather let them build both religions buildings
Same for cath. and prot. of course

Many historic rulers also chose this way

Fine, I will allow non-state religion monasteries. Just don't come crying when your faith points and/or stability gets bad.