RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[FakeShady]

Hmm yeah ok +20 then maybe? I just think its unfair that Jerusalem is less profitable than Constantinople or Rome, both at +20 gold a city. (One Catholic holy city and the other Orthodox holy city.) The only reason one wants to crusade against Constantinople instead of Jerusalem should be becos Constantinople is less heavily defended. Agree?

And adding a golden age for whoever conquers J'salem only gives incentive to conquer the city, not hold on to it. Agree?

So to give incentive to hold on to it, +gold is the only thing i can think of. And since Jerusalem is the Jewish holy city, why not?

 

[merijn_v1]

Hmm yeah ok +20 then maybe? I just think its unfair that Jerusalem is less profitable than Constantinople or Rome, both at +20 gold a city. (One Catholic holy city and the other Orthodox holy city.) The only reason one wants to crusade against Constantinople instead of Jerusalem should be becos Constantinople is less heavily defended. Agree?

And adding a golden age for whoever conquers J'salem only gives incentive to conquer the city, not hold on to it. Agree?

So to give incentive to hold on to it, +gold is the only thing i can think of. And since Jerusalem is the Jewish holy city, why not?

20 is still to much. I prefer 5 or 10. Not more.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Well holding it till the end of the mod (after 1400) seems kind of weird and ahistorical. Perhaps just make it so that the golden age is over if Jerusalem is lost before the final turn of the golden age, that way you'll want to keep it but after a while it won't matter much to you.

 

[sedna17]

Re-directed from the small bugs thread:

(Maybe now we can focus on any remaining outstanding issues and go for Beta 1.0? )

Okay, what is this list? Our old list can be seen here. We've done most of it.

The point of "beta" is that we'll announce the availability of our first beta more broadly, and make up at least a single forum post with introductory information and some pretty pictures/screenshots.

Here's what I've got on my radar ranked from most likely for beta to least likely:

1. Various bug fixes (including dynamic names)
2. Streamline buildings (mostly done)
3. Re-balance some civics (mostly done)
4. Reduce the number of resources on the map
5. Merge in French translation (ensure other languages at least launch)
6. New Ottoman spawn position
7. Colony art splash screens
8. Additional leaderheads
9. Check/revise all leaderhead personalities + diplomacy text (major amount of work)
10. Revise wonders
11. More directed respawns (i.e. higher chance to re-spawn at historically appropriate times)
12. Quests/Events

I think I'll have enough time to do 1 through 5 for a pre-Christmas/New Years beta release. There's no way I'll get further on this list before then, I'm too busy. So if people think we should include some of the other stuff before beta that will mean a post-holiday release (though if micbic or merjin_v1 can take charge of an item that might mean it got done sooner). I guess I'd probably prefer to delay the beta until after the break, and just go with a low-key Alpha 10 beforehand. Less stress for me.

In any event I'll post the beta here a little bit before wide release to help check against any of the show-stopping problems we had with Alpha 9.

 

[Jusos2108]

Re-directed from the small bugs thread:



Okay, what is this list? Our old list can be seen here. We've done most of it.

The point of "beta" is that we'll announce the availability of our first beta more broadly, and make up at least a single forum post with introductory information and some pretty pictures/screenshots.

Here's what I've got on my radar ranked from most likely for beta to least likely:

1. Various bug fixes (including dynamic names)
2. Streamline buildings (mostly done)
3. Re-balance some civics (mostly done)
4. Reduce the number of resources on the map
5. Merge in French translation (ensure other languages at least launch)
6. New Ottoman spawn position
7. Colony art splash screens
8. Additional leaderheads
9. Check/revise all leaderhead personalities + diplomacy text (major amount of work)
10. Revise wonders
11. More directed respawns (i.e. higher chance to re-spawn at historically appropriate times)
12. Quests/Events

I think I'll have enough time to do 1 through 5 for a pre-Christmas/New Years beta release. There's no way I'll get further on this list before then, I'm too busy. So if people think we should include some of the other stuff before beta that will mean a post-holiday release (though if micbic or merjin_v1 can take charge of an item that might mean it got done sooner). I guess I'd probably prefer to delay the beta until after the break, and just go with a low-key Alpha 10 beforehand. Less stress for me.

In any event I'll post the beta here a little bit before wide release to help check against any of the show-stopping problems we had with Alpha 9.

As I look at your old list, I can immeatedly point out one part of it that hasn't been accomplished: "Play-test each Civ and make sure that UHVs are 1) achievable and 2) not completely trivial" and most of all the latter part.

At this point I have played RFCE with many civs on Monarch and the mod is great otherwise, except that IMO most of the UHVs are trivial. I don't know how challenging you want RFCE to be, but compared to RFC the UHVs lack ambition. Some of the UHVs have so much spare time in them that I rarely find it interesting to finish them at all after I know that I can accomplish them; others are just way too easy.

Therefore, I am going to present to you a modified UHV-list soon (just have to finish it first). At the moment I am making sure that the UHVs are achievable. The list is made with the basic idea of having two conditions that the Civ more or less accomplished and one condition that the Civ wanted to accomplish. You can implement the parts you want, but I hope that you really consider all of them.

 

[blizzrd]

Okay, what is this list? Our old list can be seen here. We've done most of it.

For beta, I would like to see all of the spalsh screens for Wonders show the text which indicates exactly what the Wonder does. Currently most of the new wonders and all of the Colonial Projects do not show this information on the splash screens.

 

[micbic]

(though if micbic or merjin_v1 can take charge of an item that might mean it got done sooner)

As for me, my typical stuff. City name and settler map updates (I owe some of them ), and some secondary python editing. Oh, and generating Dutch starts XD

 

[sedna17]

For beta, I would like to see all of the spalsh screens for Wonders show the text which indicates exactly what the Wonder does. Currently most of the new wonders and all of the Colonial Projects do not show this information on the splash screens.

Good to know

Re: UHV difficulty: my ideal is to have a range of UHV difficulties (much like in RFC). Thus, some civs are pretty easy (and hence good beginner civs) and some are fiendishly difficult. Keep in mind that new players have to adjust to new units/techs/etc., so I think the easiest UHVs should be quite easy (in order to gently introduce a new player). I do think many UHVs are too easy, so I welcome your suggestions or comments.

I should say though, that fine UHV balancing is a very appropriate goal of the beta phase. Everyone has a different skill level (both with Civ in general and with the mechanics of RFCEurope), so we'll want to hear from a number of people to decide on some details. Furthermore, while some fundamental properties (map resources/buildings/etc) are still changing in alpha it is difficult to make sure all the UHVs remain challenging from one variation to the next. In beta I imagine the basic game mechanics will change much less, and thus UHV balancing becomes easier.

Here are my quick thoughts (based on UHVs I've played in the not-too-distant past):
Norse -- pretty decent UHVs, the settler goal is pretty tight and the explore-all-oceans goal is quite difficult if you can't befriend Byzantium.
England -- A major conquest of France is now required, which isn't hard, but normally keeps you busy for a while. The rest are too easy.
Cordoba -- Sometimes challenging, but generally works well.
Poland -- An easy set of goals, but an enjoyable game nonetheless.
Hungary -- Also quite easy (hopefully becomes harder with a stronger Ottoman empire).

 

[micbic]

Re: UHVs: I think that there should be an UHV--->LH match. I mean. What are the proposed French LHs: Louis XIV, Charlemagne and Louis XVI (who as an utter historical fail does not count). Let's take Louis and Charlemagne. What did France under Charlemagne do? Expand in most western Europe. How could we represent it? A good UHV of the style 'control n cities in 800' (I had done some playtesting on that, 6 is a challenging number). Samely: What did France under Louis XIV do? Turned Paris into a perfect wonder-city center, and got colonial: So, they could have a build n colonial projects, the Versailles and any other ethnic wonder by 1700. Add the mustbe control the historical territory, phps by vassalage, never losing any city, with spawn results not counting (yes Caen I am looking at you) till 1600, and you've got it.

BTW, have you thought increasing the UHV number to 4?

Oh. And what do you mean by range of UHV difficulties? Easy UHVs and difficult UHVs for the same civs, or easy and difficult civs in general?

 

[blizzrd]

My thoughts on UHVs (caveat: I haven't yet played all the civs in RFCE) :-

Norse: Settling Sicily is challenging, but not especially hard, others are very easy.
Arabia: Very easy UHV, especially as the crusaders are currently not working (i.e. they never attack Jerusalem). Only challenge is to manage your own instability by building lots of courthouses and manor houses.
France: Easy UHV.
Burgundy: Easy UHV.
Spain: Very easy UHV.
Cordoba: Very easy UHV.
Venice: Easy UHV.
Bulgaria: Conquering Constantinople is the only challenging condition, but a moderate and good challenge nonetheless.
Byzantium: Only managed to pull the UHV off by using my experience with regular RFC to manuipulate the system. Difficult game all round, but so far the only civ that I could say this for.

On the subject of reworking the UHVs, I totally agree with Jusos2108, that the current set of UHVs present a trivial difficulty level at best. I would also really like to see a set of UHVs in which only 2 of 3 are historical and the third is more of a "what-if" goal, that didn't actually happen but would have been interesting if it had?

 

[Jusos2108]

Good to know

Re: UHV difficulty: my ideal is to have a range of UHV difficulties (much like in RFC). Thus, some civs are pretty easy (and hence good beginner civs) and some are fiendishly difficult. Keep in mind that new players have to adjust to new units/techs/etc., so I think the easiest UHVs should be quite easy (in order to gently introduce a new player). I do think many UHVs are too easy, so I welcome your suggestions or comments.

I should say though, that fine UHV balancing is a very appropriate goal of the beta phase. Everyone has a different skill level (both with Civ in general and with the mechanics of RFCEurope), so we'll want to hear from a number of people to decide on some details. Furthermore, while some fundamental properties (map resources/buildings/etc) are still changing in alpha it is difficult to make sure all the UHVs remain challenging from one variation to the next. In beta I imagine the basic game mechanics will change much less, and thus UHV balancing becomes easier.

Here are my quick thoughts (based on UHVs I've played in the not-too-distant past):
Norse -- pretty decent UHVs, the settler goal is pretty tight and the explore-all-oceans goal is quite difficult if you can't befriend Byzantium.
England -- A major conquest of France is now required, which isn't hard, but normally keeps you busy for a while. The rest are too easy.
Cordoba -- Sometimes challenging, but generally works well.
Poland -- An easy set of goals, but an enjoyable game nonetheless.
Hungary -- Also quite easy (hopefully becomes harder with a stronger Ottoman empire).

BTW, do you want me to post the list here or somewhere else??

 

[micbic]

I would also really like to see a set of UHVs in which only 2 of 3 are historical and the third is more of a "what-if" goal, that didn't actually happen but would have been interesting if it had?

Excuse me but I personally do not agree so much with this. UHVs should represent what the nation did historically, or aimed to historically (eg Bulgaria to capture Constantinople, or Germany to be stronger than Austria). Seeing this in the way of the future observer, who thinks "hmmm and what if the Norse colonized more heavily Germany than England?"
might be interesting, but not realistic, so we should turn at this UHV type only if we cannot think of both realistic and interesting UHVs.
Perhaps there should be an option 'turn what-if UHVs on', but I am not so sure about its coding difficulty.

 

[jessiecat]

For beta, I would like to see all of the spalsh screens for Wonders show the text which indicates exactly what the Wonder does. Currently most of the new wonders and all of the Colonial Projects do not show this information on the splash screens.

As you probably know, I suggested a text pop-up for the colony splash screens awhile ago, which Sedna's got on his to do list. If you're proposing the same for all Wonders too, I'm all for it. Should they include just the historical write-up or a description of all their benefits as well? If the latter, I think that's a very good idea.
It would be simple to add a line describing the resources gained to the existing colony texts too.

 

[blizzrd]

As you probably know, I suggested a text pop-up for the colony splash screens awhile ago, which Sedna's got on his to do list. If you're proposing the same for all Wonders too, I'm all for it. Should they include just the historical write-up or a description of all their benefits as well? If the latter, I think that's a very good idea.

I just meant the latter, i.e. gives +10% wealth in all cities, +1 in all cities, etc.

It would be simple to add a line describing the resources gained to the existing colony texts too.

We are in agreement. I often can't remember what bonuses each colonial project gives after it is produced and if the splash screen stated this it would help a lot.

 

[blizzrd]

Excuse me but I personally do not agree so much with this. UHVs should represent what the nation did historically, or aimed to historically (eg Bulgaria to capture Constantinople, or Germany to be stronger than Austria). Seeing this in the way of the future observer, who thinks "hmmm and what if the Norse colonized more heavily Germany than England?"
might be interesting, but not realistic, so we should turn at this UHV type only if we cannot think of both realistic and interesting UHVs.

My point wasn't made quite clear enough, for which I apoligise and will clarify. I think we actually are in agreement.

What I meant by the "what-if" was infact, as you say, more along the lines of something that the civ aimed to do historically but never succeeded at. As opposed to what if the Norse colonised Germany instead of the British Isles.

Other than the Bulgarian goal to conquer Constantinople, I don't see many other UHVs as currently containing a similer "almost historical" goal.

 

[micbic]

Well, in this case, we indeed are in agreement. One of the UHVs could be a what-if, in these terms (actually, that is why I propose the 4 UHV model, if doable, 3 realistic and one of the aimed-to-it-but-never-got-it-to-go category)

 

[Jusos2108]

UHVs should represent what the nation did historically, or aimed to historically (eg Bulgaria to capture Constantinople, or Germany to be stronger than Austria).

This is pretty much what I meant (and probably blizzrd too). Two of the UHVs are about the civ's accomplishments and one is about something they tried to do (historically). Allthough, it is not as black-and-white in every case.

 

[FakeShady]

20 is still to much. I prefer 5 or 10. Not more.

Hmm ok maybe in Jerusalem, Temple of Solomon: +1 gold from every city with Judaism. Caps at 10 gold. This will give incentive to hold on to it i guess.

Thoughts?

Oh by the way, i do not understand the 2nd Byzantine UHV. The Turks spawn right on the turn you're supposed to complete the 2nd UHV.

Another thing. I realized there no longer are any crazy culture buildings (Wembley, Hollywood, Broadcasting Tower) As a cultural victory fan, i find it much more difficult in this mod to get 50000 culture in 3 cities. I would like to suggest the number be reduced to something not easily reached but not that ridiculous too. Maybe something between 30k-40k. 40000 should be fair. What you guys think?

And another thing i think you guys need to know before the beta release, is that there's no way Germany can found Protestantism before Swedes spawn. THIS DESERVES SPECIAL ATTENTION I THINK!!!

 

[blizzrd]

Oh by the way, i do not understand the 2nd Byzantine UHV. The Turks spawn right on the turn you're supposed to complete the 2nd UHV.

Exactly. After they spawn, some cities in Anatolia will flip to the Ottoman Turks. After the UHV condition has already been checked.

Another thing. I realized there no longer are any crazy culture buildings (Wembley, Hollywood, Broadcasting Tower)

You clearly haven't played the mod enough to know what you are saying. I'm no expert, but there a much more cultural buildings than there are in regular RFC. Monuments give +25% culture as well as +1 Culture. Manor houses also give culture. Cathedrals still give culture +50% culture but now also enable Belfries for another +25% culture.

Then there is the daddy of all cultural wonders, the Sistine Chapel. Which has the same effect in RFCE as RFC, but because of the multitude of additonal religious buildings available this wonder is now insane if you actually want to go for a cultural victory. There is absolutely no need to reduce the threshold for a cultural victory in RFCE. None whatsoever.

Perhaps take a longer look at the mod for yourself?

 

[micbic]

And another thing i think you guys need to know before the beta release, is that there's no way Germany can found Protestantism before Swedes spawn. THIS DESERVES SPECIAL ATTENTION I THINK!!!

Basically it is not yet sure that Germany survives through its spawn...