Panopticon
Utilitarian
If it works like RFC, probably a 4:1 culture advantage, i.e. 80%.
RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread
- Thread starter st.lucifer
- Start date
I realize i'm starting to become some sort of a Byzantine fan, even thought about joining Orthodoxy once in a while, so yeah a warning to everyone my comments might be sometimes very biased to the Byzantines xD
But yeah, i totally agree with not moving the Ottomans to the west
In fact the Ottomans won't even spawn so near to Constantinople if the Seljuks had not conquered so much of Asia Minor. So its a bit weird when the Seljuks never even took one city but the Ottomans suddenly appear in the middle of Asia Minor.So if you guys wanna be REALLY realistic, forget the Ottomans and make the Turks spawn as the Seljuks somewhere in 1000AD on eastern Anatolia. This will mean they get to face the full Mongol invasion, which will be realistic. IF, and only IF, the Seljuks collapse for any reason, then make them respawn at Ankara. Realistic?
micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
Quite a good idea, but with two (2, II) objections:
1) We already represent the Seljuks as a barbarian invasion. They are, to an extent, the precestors of Ottomans, but still...no, barb invasions are the best way to get them in
2) And say yea, the Seljuks are in the mod...life in Byzantium gets more difficult, but only you care...nevertheless....the Mongols spawn...(however they are more soft than their Northern counterparts)...but anycase they destroy them. You can't prescript a respawn, we may give the Ottomans a very high respawn probability, but there will be cases where they will spawn at 1700.... 
Still, a good idea.
1) We already represent the Seljuks as a barbarian invasion. They are, to an extent, the precestors of Ottomans, but still...no, barb invasions are the best way to get them in
2) And say yea, the Seljuks are in the mod...life in Byzantium gets more difficult, but only you care
...nevertheless....the Mongols spawn...(however they are more soft than their Northern counterparts)...but anycase they destroy them. You can't prescript a respawn, we may give the Ottomans a very high respawn probability, but there will be cases where they will spawn at 1700.... Still, a good idea.
haha ok. I just find it weird the Ottomans spawn right in the middle of Anatolia when the Seljuks hadn't even spread their "Turkishness" into my beloved Byzantium. Its like "Oh everywhere around Anatolia is Byzantine, and then one fine day SURPRISE!!! A Turkish civ spawn outta nowhere in the middle of your kingdom" I think this is actually a big issue and needs to be addressed, no? 
Or you can make the Ottomans respawn only as far as the Seljuks get. In that case it will make sense even if the Ottomans respawn in the 1700s, as there is already "Turkish culture" in that area. I don't see why the Seljuks aren't a civ. "The Turks" should include Seljuks too. In fact they are the earliest Turkish civ considered to be civilized. Come to think of it, it makes no sense that the Byzantines are the ones who fight the mongols. The seljuks should be the ones to tank the mongols.
I guess that makes me the official biased tester of Byzantium for this mod xD
Or you can make the Ottomans respawn only as far as the Seljuks get. In that case it will make sense even if the Ottomans respawn in the 1700s, as there is already "Turkish culture" in that area. I don't see why the Seljuks aren't a civ. "The Turks" should include Seljuks too. In fact they are the earliest Turkish civ considered to be civilized. Come to think of it, it makes no sense that the Byzantines are the ones who fight the mongols. The seljuks should be the ones to tank the mongols.
I guess that makes me the official biased tester of Byzantium for this mod xD
Dragonflow
Emperor
I didn't even know there are Mongols in eastern Anatolia. Well I guess I had no contact with them since I retreaded from eastern Anatolia when the Seljuks arrived. I couldn't hold that region, mostly because of cities like Tarsus and Iconium declaring themselves independent and I had to send warriors every time to reconquer them. I'm going to play another round as Byzantium and try new tactics.
To my surprise Bulgaria wasn't that much of thread after all, thanks to mercenaries. But the Arabs are a very painful enemy in the east.
To my surprise Bulgaria wasn't that much of thread after all, thanks to mercenaries.
But the Arabs are a very painful enemy in the east.
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,091
We will not be adding Seljuks as a separate civilization. I could increase their strength to purge the Byzantines from Anatolia, if that would make you happier.
I don't have a big problem with the Ottomans showing up close to Byzantium. That's basically how this mod works -- Civs spawn in a defined spot at a defined time, not subject to what else is going on around them. I think there was a bug with the Mongols south-of-the-Black-Sea in the code (the coordinates were flipped), so that can be fixed.
As for the whole question of respawns -- it's complicated. Yes, in theory, we can code it so that respawns happen (or are more likely to happen) at specific times and change the location of respawns and everything. In practice, the spawning code is complex enough that this would be a major effort to write and (especially) debug. 3Miro has recently re-written some of the respawn code, so he's far more qualified to comment on what is easy/difficult to implement. Now that it's past Thanksgiving perhaps we'll see him around again.
I don't have a big problem with the Ottomans showing up close to Byzantium. That's basically how this mod works -- Civs spawn in a defined spot at a defined time, not subject to what else is going on around them. I think there was a bug with the Mongols south-of-the-Black-Sea in the code (the coordinates were flipped), so that can be fixed.
As for the whole question of respawns -- it's complicated. Yes, in theory, we can code it so that respawns happen (or are more likely to happen) at specific times and change the location of respawns and everything. In practice, the spawning code is complex enough that this would be a major effort to write and (especially) debug. 3Miro has recently re-written some of the respawn code, so he's far more qualified to comment on what is easy/difficult to implement. Now that it's past Thanksgiving perhaps we'll see him around again.
micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
Re: Respawns: I just did some edits at the probability, all else is too difficult and/or unconnected (eg yes I know setting respawn area coordinates but not the initial square where units will show up).
Re: Mongols-Byzantium: Actually they will most probably not fight Byzantium, but Arabia. They most frequently show up at the Middle East, and even if they do at Byzantium, usually the area E of the Aegean Sea is collapsed. The actual Mongol wave coming is Tamerlane, and they come after the Ottoman spawn.
Re: Cog fix. Just ran another 1580 test game with revision 147. Again no transport ship used, and there two questions arise. 1) Was the code for transportation fixed for all transport ships? And 2) don't you think that, apart from that, the problem is that the AI is afraid of getting its ships out because of pirate ones, or that the pirates destroy them. Possible solutions are a) nerfing pirates and b) learn the AI to escort transport ships by war ones.
Re: Mongols-Byzantium: Actually they will most probably not fight Byzantium, but Arabia. They most frequently show up at the Middle East, and even if they do at Byzantium, usually the area E of the Aegean Sea is collapsed. The actual Mongol wave coming is Tamerlane, and they come after the Ottoman spawn.
Re: Cog fix. Just ran another 1580 test game with revision 147. Again no transport ship used, and there two questions arise. 1) Was the code for transportation fixed for all transport ships? And 2) don't you think that, apart from that, the problem is that the AI is afraid of getting its ships out because of pirate ones, or that the pirates destroy them. Possible solutions are a) nerfing pirates and b) learn the AI to escort transport ships by war ones.
embryodead
Caliph
I assume you fixed the Cog XML in UnitAI and DefaultUnitAI? It needs both tags copied from Holk.
Also, some things I noticed:
1. Simone Boccanegra has the unchanged personality of Alexander the Great in XML so he is set to favor land attack units and razing cities... changing the UNITAI_ATTACK to UNITAI_ATTACK_SEA is one easy fix.
2. Rhye's UNITAI switch in CvCityAI.cpp(2384) is commented out, the part which specific civs build more or less of different types of units. Unless this was moved to Python, if this was re-enabled it'd make Venice and Genoa build more naval units, among other things.
micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
Not me, sedna.
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
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- 1,091
Both good suggestions, in fact many of the leaderheads need XML work. I don't think UNITAI ever made it over to be "Python-controlled DLL-implemented". It would be a good candidate.
I haven't actually got around to giving Genoa a settler on the boat + an escort boat -- I think that will make a bigger impact initially.
NO making the Seljuks stronger would not solve the "Ottomans appear outta nowhere" problem xD You know that lol. i just thought that had the Byzantines won the Battle of Manzikert the Ottomans wouldn't have spawned so near to Constantinople in the first place. But since you guys doesn't have a problem with Ottomans appearing right in the middle of Anatolia, its okay then, really
We'll just never really know what will happen if the Byzantines had won the Seljuks.Regarding your next point, i think the current spawn position of the Ottomans (Ankara) is already very close. At least a good 3 Byzantine cities will flip as a result. Why move it even closer? The Byzantines should get to keep at least the 2 cities in Asia Minor closest to Constantinople. If the Ottomans want it, they'll have to fight for it (they are likely to get it anyway, but it shouldn't go down without a fight.) Moving the spawn zone for the Ottomans closer to Constantinople is just NOT FAIR. It will reduce Byzantium from an empire to a city-state in an instant!! If you wanna increase the chances of the Ottomans capturing Constantinople, just give them more units at the start.
Last but not least i am very sure the Mongols attacked Asia Minor more than they attacked Arabs. Very sure
micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
Are you talking about the Mongol Hordes (1250) or the Timurids (1400) ? Both were Mongols.
st.lucifer
King
Personally, I think the spawn in Marmara is worth playing around with. It has the additional advantage of not putting the Ottomans in immediate conflict with Arabia, which seems to happen most of the time.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
There were 2 Mongol invasions in the late 1200s.
1) The invasion of Anatolia in 1241-44 when they sacked the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum
and
2) The invasion of Syria in 1259-60 when they were decisively defeated by the Mamelukes under Baibars at the Battle of Ain Jalut (see map). Their first major defeat which prevented them reaching Jerusalem and Egypt.
What usually happens in the mod is the Seljuks attack only the Arabs when they spawn and the Byzantine cities are rarely touched. Maybe if we had the Seljuks found a barb city near Trebizond and then spawn hordes of cavalry it would be more realistic. Then a Mongol invasion would attack the Seljuks first or whatever city there is in eastern Anatolia.
1) The invasion of Anatolia in 1241-44 when they sacked the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum
and
2) The invasion of Syria in 1259-60 when they were decisively defeated by the Mamelukes under Baibars at the Battle of Ain Jalut (see map). Their first major defeat which prevented them reaching Jerusalem and Egypt.
What usually happens in the mod is the Seljuks attack only the Arabs when they spawn and the Byzantine cities are rarely touched. Maybe if we had the Seljuks found a barb city near Trebizond and then spawn hordes of cavalry it would be more realistic. Then a Mongol invasion would attack the Seljuks first or whatever city there is in eastern Anatolia.
micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
First city coming to mind is Erzerum.
BTW it is the first time I hear about the Mongol invasion in 1241...
Totally agree. Basically sums up my previous post.
I was referring to the Mongol Hordes in 1250 by the way, when i said they attacked me more than the Arabs. I am also VERY VERY sure the Seljuks attacked me much more than the Arabs.
But if i'm not wrong:
1) Seljuks should attack Asia Minor
2) Mongol Hordes should attack Seljuks
3) Timurids should attack Arabs
Only 1) is seen so far.
I played another game on monarch as Byzantine and I barely made it through the plague, Arabs and Bulgarians. The plague could be solved (somehow) with small cities and stacking units; only two Anatolian cities declared independence. But the weird thing was that I got it twice in couple (3) of my cities, I don't think that is supposed to happen. So if you don't plan to remove the plague, at least nerfe it a bit...
Anyway, as I played on and had just recaptured Tyre and taken Damascus, I noticed that my first UHV didn't trigger, then I went to Victory screen and noticed that Rome's culture was way beyond my reach (what kind of buildings they have in there?!), eventhough I had some impressive stuff (screenshots) in Constantinople myself.
So IMO Rome shouldn't be in the race at all (or it's culture should be turn down), since it is not completely in the game either (meaning that I cant take my Cataprachts and raze it
), or then Constantinople's culture should be reenforced from the start. Since playing with Byzantines is really difficult already (easily harder than, for example, Persians in RFC)! Basicly dealing with the plague, horrible stability and Rome's culture is a bit too much.
Well I guess I have to go for Domination Victory then.
Anyway, as I played on and had just recaptured Tyre and taken Damascus, I noticed that my first UHV didn't trigger, then I went to Victory screen and noticed that Rome's culture was way beyond my reach (what kind of buildings they have in there?!), eventhough I had some impressive stuff (screenshots) in Constantinople myself.
So IMO Rome shouldn't be in the race at all (or it's culture should be turn down), since it is not completely in the game either (meaning that I cant take my Cataprachts and raze it
), or then Constantinople's culture should be reenforced from the start. Since playing with Byzantines is really difficult already (easily harder than, for example, Persians in RFC)! Basicly dealing with the plague, horrible stability and Rome's culture is a bit too much.Well I guess I have to go for Domination Victory then.
I played another game on monarch as Byzantine and I barely made it through the plague, Arabs and Bulgarians. The plague could be solved (somehow) with small cities and stacking units; only two Anatolian cities declared independence. But the weird thing was that I got it twice in couple (3) of my cities, I don't think that is supposed to happen. So if you don't plan to remove the plague, at least nerfe it a bit...
Anyway, as I played on and had just recaptured Tyre and taken Damascus, I noticed that my first UHV didn't trigger, then I went to Victory screen and noticed that Rome's culture was way beyond my reach (what kind of buildings they have in there?!), eventhough I had some impressive stuff (screenshots) in Constantinople myself.
So IMO Rome shouldn't be in the race at all (or it's culture should be turn down), since it is not completely in the game either (meaning that I cant take my Cataprachts and raze it
Well I guess I have to go for Domination Victory then.
Score victory would be more realistic, but they will have to tone down the research penalty for the big civs first. The reason Rome had such a high culture is becos the idea is you pump all your culture and commerce into Constantinople (maybe even use Bureacracy) if u wanna complete your first UHV. With right timing, the first UHV could be done, though i also admit its a bit too hard.
And yes Byzantines in RFC:E is way much harder than Persians or Babylon in RFC, even without the starting plague, which is probably why i'm complaining so much too xD
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,091
I'm probably going to remove Justinian's plague for the next update, but...
What if we made Byzantium stronger at the start and left the plague in?
I'm thinking of giving them some initial stability points, some more buildings to reduce maintenance, and a fleet + larger army. I think it would be awesome if they had the capacity to attack and take at least southern Italy + North Africa. This might not be a wise strategy (expansion isn't going to help your stability and it would be better to hold back the army for garrison duty against the plague) but it would be nice to have more options.
I'd have to see what the AI would do. I assume they would just keep the troops at home and possibly that would crimp the Arab advance.
I should say, as a general note, that we basically envisioned balancing the human Byzantium last. That is, we know that Byzantium is a uniquely frustrating and difficult side to play as the humans, but our first priority is to get the dynamics of the region right, and make things play well for their neighbors. Of course we want Byzantium to be playable, but it will always be quite difficult and different, and that's by design. Byzantium should come with a warning label: Caution, this Civ is a unique experience.
What if we made Byzantium stronger at the start and left the plague in?
I'm thinking of giving them some initial stability points, some more buildings to reduce maintenance, and a fleet + larger army. I think it would be awesome if they had the capacity to attack and take at least southern Italy + North Africa. This might not be a wise strategy (expansion isn't going to help your stability and it would be better to hold back the army for garrison duty against the plague) but it would be nice to have more options.
I'd have to see what the AI would do. I assume they would just keep the troops at home and possibly that would crimp the Arab advance.
I should say, as a general note, that we basically envisioned balancing the human Byzantium last. That is, we know that Byzantium is a uniquely frustrating and difficult side to play as the humans, but our first priority is to get the dynamics of the region right, and make things play well for their neighbors. Of course we want Byzantium to be playable, but it will always be quite difficult and different, and that's by design. Byzantium should come with a warning label: Caution, this Civ is a unique experience.
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