RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[FakeShady]

You clearly haven't played the mod enough to know what you are saying. I'm no expert, but there a much more cultural buildings than there are in regular RFC. Monuments give +25% culture as well as +1 Culture. Manor houses also give culture. Cathedrals still give culture +50% culture but now also enable Belfries for another +25% culture.

Then there is the daddy of all cultural wonders, the Sistine Chapel. Which has the same effect in RFCE as RFC, but because of the multitude of additonal religious buildings available this wonder is now insane if you actually want to go for a cultural victory. There is absolutely no need to reduce the threshold for a cultural victory in RFCE. None whatsoever.

Perhaps take a longer look at the mod for yourself?

i did play around a lot with the culture aspect of the game, honestly those are just my observations Well i was assuming that since all those wonderful +50% culture wonders are missing, its more difficult to achieve it. I myself think its harder to achieve cultural victory here than in normal RFC, so yeah, but since you guys don't agree... Never mind then

So here's another feedback then: Venice's UHVs. Its quite ok but the 2nd one is too easy and its overall completed way too fast. 1600s is a bit too early from a Venetian POV. I suggest the 2nd one merge with the 1st one to make:

1. Control Dalmatia coast, Cyprus, Crete, Rhode Islands by 1550

Then make the 3rd UHV the 2nd one:

2. Control 7 luxury resources by 1620 (is it 1620?)

Then as for the 3rd one, "do xxx something by 1700" this will allow the venetian player to live all the way into the 1700s Maybe something like money is good, and it'll give the player incentive to build St Mark Basilica too So maybe:

3. Have 1xxxx (12k-15k?) gold in 1700?

Tell me what you guys think

 

[FakeShady]

Basically it is not yet sure that Germany survives through its spawn...

Errr... what? XD Heh what does that mean and what does that have to do with Germany founding Protestantism? XD

 

[jessiecat]

Errr... what? XD Heh what does that mean and what does that have to do with Germany founding Protestantism? XD

What he means, I think, is that the AI Germany is often wiped out by barbs as soon as it spawns. This problem needs to be addressed, maybe by increasing their starting defensive units, nerfing the barbs, or both.
As far as Germany founding never founding Protestantism goes, I think the problem lies in their early tech rate. This should be increased a lot, I think. Another problem is early instability. I think Germany should start with Code of Laws so they can build their UB, the Rathaus ASAP. That plus the faster tech rate would give them a much better chance to tech thru to Protestantism, don't you think?

 

[FakeShady]

What he means, I think, is that the AI Germany is often wiped out by barbs as soon as it spawns. This problem needs to be addressed, maybe by increasing their starting defensive units, nerfing the barbs, or both.
As far as Germany founding never founding Protestantism goes, I think the problem lies in their early tech rate. This should be increased a lot, I think. Another problem is early instability. I think Germany should start with Code of Laws so they can build their UB, the Rathaus ASAP. That plus the faster tech rate would give them a much better chance to tech thru to Protestantism, don't you think?

Code of laws for Germany at the start would be good, though i prefer more units heh xD As for the tech rate, definitely!!! I tried bee-lining Printing Press with 9 good cities, sacrificing a lot in the process but it still failed. Something definitely has to be done about tech rate, not just for Germany but for all potentially big civs. The "high-score low tech" problem really really has to be addressed.

 

[Jusos2108]

So here is my list of the UHVs. The conditions that the civ more or less wanted to achieve are marked with *. Not all civs have them though. Some civs have two choices for one condition.

Spoiler :

Arabia (Spawning year 632AD)
1. Control Levant, Aleppo, Antioch and Egypt in 950AD
2. Spread Islam to cover 30% of all people *
3. Control all of North Africa and Cordoba (by vassalage or conquest) before 1500AD

Austria (1160AD)
1. Control the entire Carpathian basin in 1450AD
2. Have 3 vassals in 1600AD
3.Control Germany by conquest or vassalage in 1750AD *

Bulgaria (660AD)
1. Do not lose a city to barbarians (Mongols), Byzantines, or Ottomans before 1400AD
2. Own every city in Moesia, Thracia, Macedonia and Greece (including Constantinople) by 1200AD *
3. Build 3 Orthodox cathedrals before 1450AD.

Burgundy (500AD)
1. Control the Rhine and Rhone Valleys (from Mediterranean to the North Sea) in 1200AD *
2. Capture Jerusalem before 1300AD and hold it for at least 60 years
3. Control 10 luxury resources in 1450AD

Byzantine (500AD)
1. Make Constantinople the largest and most cultured city in 1000AD
2. Own Constantinople and every city in Greece and Anatolia in 1300AD
3. Control at least 10 cities and have 3000 gold in 1500AD *

Cordoba (712AD)
1. Make Cordoba the largest city in Europe in 1000AD
2. Build the Alhambra, the Gardens of Al-Andalus, and La Mezquita by 1200AD
3. Control all of Iberia by conquest or vassalage and spread Islam to every Iberian city by 1350AD *

Dutch (1580AD)
1. Have open borders with 12 civs by 1620AD
2. Settle 5 Great Merchants in Amsterdam by 1740AD
3. Build 4 Colonial Projects and one Trading Company

England (1060AD)
1. Control the British Isles and control (by conquest or vassalage) France in 1500AD *
2. Build 8 Colonial Projects and one Trading Company
3. Be the first to discover Printing Press (Found Protestantism) and enter Industrial Age

France (500AD)
1. Control the historic territory of France in 1350AD
2. Have 15000 culture and Notre Dame in Paris in 1650AD
3. Build 8 colonial projects and one Trading Company *

Genoa (1020AD)
1. Control Sardinia, Marseilles, Milano, Cyprus and Crete in 1500AD
2. Found 2 Corporations and build 8 Banks
3. Conquer Venice before 1600AD *

Germany (940AD)
1. Control the core of Germany, Italy north of Rome (excluding Venice) and Naples in 1400AD
2. Found Protestantism /or Have at least 3 vassals in 1500AD
3. Be the most powerful and largest nation in Europe in 1600AD *

Hungary (900AD)
1. Control the most territory in Europe (including Arabia) in 1490AD
2. Be the first to adopt Free Religion
3. Allow no Ottoman city in mainland Europe by 1650AD *

Moscow (1323AD)
1. Ensure that there are no Barbarian (Mongol) or Kievan Rus cities in Russia in 1482AD
2. Control at least 10% of Europe’s territory in 1650AD
3. Gain access to warm waters (Conquer Constantinople or secure one Atlantic Access resource) *

Norse (770AD)
1. Have at least one city in each of Normandy, Britain, Ireland, Iceland, and Sicily in 1050AD
2. Reveal all ocean tiles by 1260AD
3. Raze 10 cities (or Control Great Britain*) before 1450AD

Kievan Rus (880AD)
1. Control 10 grain resources in 1200AD
2. Control all northern Black Sea coast east of the Carpathian mts. in 1300AD
3. Don not lose a city to barbarians (Mongols) or Moscowites before 1450AD *

Ottoman (1300AD)
1. Control Constantinople and Anatolia in 1500AD
2. Control the Balkans south of the Danube in 1600AD
3. Control the Levant, Egypt, Tunis, Vienna and have two vassals by 1750AD *

Poland (970AD)
1. Be the most populous country in Europe (including Arabia) in 1540AD
2. Never lose a city before 1650AD *
3. Be the Catholic nation with most Faith Points in 1730AD

Portugal (1100AD)
1. Control 5 cities in Iberia and found 5 cities on Atlantic Ocean’s islands or North-West Africa in 1500AD
2. Have the most complete map of Europe in 1550AD *
3. Build 6 Colonial Projects

Spain (909AD)
1. Unite Iberia under one rule (by conquest or vassalage) and allow only Catholic faith in 1400AD *
2. Control 3 cities in North Africa, Southern Italy, Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia in 1550AD
3. Build 8 Colonial Projects

Sweden (1500AD)
1. Control Sweden, Finland and one Baltic city in 1620AD
2. Do not lose any cities to Poland or Russia before 1700AD
3. Conquer Moscow and Warsaw by 1750AD *

Venetia (800AD)
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in Greece, Crete, Cyprus and conquer Rhodes by 1350AD
2. Capture Constantinople and hold it for 60 years between 1200 and 1400AD
3. Control 12 luxury resources/or unite Italy under your rule(excluding Rome) by 1600AD *

The list is only meant to bring more challenge to the mod and you can implement the parts you want.

 

[merijn_v1]

Hmm ok maybe in Jerusalem, Temple of Solomon: +1 gold from every city with Judaism. Caps at 10 gold. This will give incentive to hold on to it i guess.

Personally, I think the Jews (no offend to them) shouldn't get a holy shrine in this MOD. They represent a very small religion. IMO too small. (BTW, they have Temple Mount) But giving a bonus for capturing Jerusalem is good IMO. (more than just a golden age) Maybe a bonus of 500??? each time you capture it.

 

[apenpaap]

Personally, I think the Jews (no offend to them) shouldn't get a holy shrine in this MOD. They represent a very small religion. IMO too small. (BTW, they have Temple Mount) But giving a bonus for capturing Jerusalem is good IMO. (more than just a golden age) Maybe a bonus of 500??? each time you capture it.

That would just give incentive to conquer it and then leave it empty so the AI conquers it and you can take it from them again.
How about a stability bonus for holding it?

 

[FakeShady]

That would just give incentive to conquer it and then leave it empty so the AI conquers it and you can take it from them again.
How about a stability bonus for holding it?

Stability or happiness bonus for holding it would be perfect

 

[3Miro]

I am almost back. It is hard to live in two states and I will not have a chance to code until January. I only have my laptop with me right now and it only has Intel integrated video, nothing that can handle Civ. I can technically code, but I cannot test/debug anything.

I was skimming over the las month or so worth of posts and will give come comments/clarifications:

1. Holy Cities and Jerusalem in particular cannot be razed (by natural means, you can do it in a WB if you want). The purpose of this is to ensure that no religion can be wiped out completely and that Crusades have a meaning.

2. Crusaders are units controlled by an AI and it will be tricky to distinguish between the Crusaders and the regular units of the AI. Besides, suicide attack without siege weapons decreasing the city's defense is pointless.

3. Nations' chance to respawn could be coded to depend on the year (i.e. drop after some year). Also the code has not been well debugged yet, it could be that many respawns are not happening because the code doesn't work properly.

On other issues:

1. Every nation should have an unhistorical UHV, basically something they attempted and failed, something that could have changed the history of the region. Bulgaria capturing Constantinople, Cordoba not failing to the reconquista and so on.

2. We do need very aggressive Ottomans and spawning some units on the Balakns makes sense (especially if they capture Adrianopolis early on).

3. I will have to check to see the AI_SEA_ATTACK thing.

I will keep on posting and will try to keep up-to-date, but I don't expect to work on this until January. Sorry about that (and I really am sorry).

 

[FakeShady]

failing to the reconquista and so on.

2. We do need very aggressive Ottomans and spawning some units on the Balakns makes sense (especially if they capture Adrianopolis early on).

Thanks a lot -.- The Byzantines just keep getting it worse, eh? First the ridiculous stability, then the ridiculous research penalty, then the ridiculous barbs, Seljuks, then the 1250 Mongols, then the crazy plague, then Ottomans spawning nearer to the capital, and now units on the Balkans, because the Ottomans are "expected" to conquer Constantinople, if not the Ottomans "need to be stronger" -.- As the Byzantine-biased tester, LOL, i can't help but feel that the Byzantines are VERY unfairly treated, hope you guys can feel me.

Another thing i realize is that Venice completes all its UHVs before its can even build its UB or UU (if you beeline tech to unlock St Marco Basilica) All its UHVs have too early dates, as previously mentioned in a previous post.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Thanks a lot -.- The Byzantines just keep getting it worse, eh? First the ridiculous stability, then the ridiculous research penalty, then the ridiculous barbs, Seljuks, then the 1250 Mongols, then the crazy plague, then Ottomans spawning nearer to the capital, and now units on the Balkans, because the Ottomans are "expected" to conquer Constantinople, if not the Ottomans "need to be stronger" -.- As the Byzantine-biased tester, LOL, i can't help but feel that the Byzantines are VERY unfairly treated, hope you guys can feel me.

The problem is that the Byzantine history was very much a series of ups and downs from power to irrelevence, and thats quite hard in game place terms to get right. However making the Byzantines too weak is a much better outcome in my opinion, than making them too strong - it makes the Ottomans, Italians, Bulgarians and Arabs more playable, and allows the civs further west to overtake technologically. Making them too strong only makes them good to play, at the cost of all the surrounding civs - exactly why RFC600AD byzantines are not playable and drop behind quickly.

 

[Verily]

Just thought I'd provide some input for Venice's UHVs...

1. Control Constantinople by 1250. (You could fiddle around with the date a bit. This encourages accumulating gold and hijacking a crusade or two.)

2. Control Dalmatia and have at least four cities in Greece by 1550. ("Greece" means the mainland and islands, including Crete, Rhodes, Corcyra, etc., and extending to just below Thessaloniki, but it should be okay for the Ottomans (or someone else, not the Byzantines because you collapsed them for the first UHV) to control part of Greece as well.)

3. Control six different luxury resources by 1700. (That should easily be doable. I would be tempted to put the date much earlier, at 1550 like the preceding one right after the historical height of Venice's power around 1500, but people seem to want Venice's UHV to end late. Honestly, by 1700 Venice was way into decline and no more than one of a group of weak Italian states.)

 

[FakeShady]

The problem is that the Byzantine history was very much a series of ups and downs from power to irrelevence, and thats quite hard in game place terms to get right. However making the Byzantines too weak is a much better outcome in my opinion, than making them too strong - it makes the Ottomans, Italians, Bulgarians and Arabs more playable, and allows the civs further west to overtake technologically. Making them too strong only makes them good to play, at the cost of all the surrounding civs - exactly why RFC600AD byzantines are not playable and drop behind quickly.

Yes, but the Byzantine player should also have a high chance of surviving the Ottoman spawn. Either that, or the 3rd UHV be: "Survive past 1450!", which would be dumb.

Don't forget, the only reason Byzantines is weak during the Ottoman spawn in history is becos of 2 things:

1) They lost a lot of land during the Seljuk wars in 1070
2) They got their capital pillaged by the Venetians in 1200s

If both or one of the above 2 things did not happen, the Byzantines would be strong. Maybe not really strong, but definitely not weak.

As for the Venetian UHV i think any "Venetian-ish" UHV would be fine, so long as they last long enough for the Venetians to use their UU and UB. I think their final UHV should only be completed by earliest 1700. Don't forget the Venetians lasted even longer than that in real life history

 

[Jusos2108]

Just thought I'd provide some input for Venice's UHVs...

1. Control Constantinople by 1250. (You could fiddle around with the date a bit. This encourages accumulating gold and hijacking a crusade or two.)

2. Control Dalmatia and have at least four cities in Greece by 1550. ("Greece" means the mainland and islands, including Crete, Rhodes, Corcyra, etc., and extending to just below Thessaloniki, but it should be okay for the Ottomans (or someone else, not the Byzantines because you collapsed them for the first UHV) to control part of Greece as well.)

3. Control six different luxury resources by 1700. (That should easily be doable. I would be tempted to put the date much earlier, at 1550 like the preceding one right after the historical height of Venice's power around 1500, but people seem to want Venice's UHV to end late. Honestly, by 1700 Venice was way into decline and no more than one of a group of weak Italian states.)

If you check one of the posts above, you can find my suggested UHVs for all RFCE civs. The Venetian ones are pretty much the same:

Venetia (800AD)
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in Greece, Crete, Cyprus and conquer Rhodes by 1350AD
2. Capture Constantinople and hold it for 60 years between 1200 and 1400AD (if codeable)
3. Control 12 luxury resources/or unite Italy under your rule(excluding Rome)by 1600AD*

By the third UHV you should have easily build some Galleas.

 

[jessiecat]

If you check one of the posts above, you can find my suggested UHVs for all RFCE civs. The Venetian ones are pretty much the same:

Venetia (800AD)
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in Greece, Crete, Cyprus and conquer Rhodes by 1350AD
2. Capture Constantinople and hold it for 60 years between 1200 and 1400AD (if codeable)
3. Control 12 luxury resources/or unite Italy under your rule(excluding Rome)by 1600AD*

By the third UHV you should have easily build some Galleas.

Having looked at your list, I really don't think there's much need to change the UHVs before we get to Beta, as I think Sedna's already suggested. Improving UHV goals is very much what we should be doing during Beta testing. Just making them harder is not the answer either at this stage as we need doable goals for new players to test, not just for the experienced veterans.

However, I am interested in your Venice proposals. No.1 is fine though 1400 would allow a bit more gameplay. No.2 is good if holding Constantinople for a fixed period in that time slot is codeable. No.3 is also good but I don't know if it's possible to code a choice of goals like that. Maybe Sedna knows if it can be done. That being said, I like all three. Let's go for it.

 

[3Miro]

We already have an or goal for Moscow and it is codable. The 60 year one is more tricky, but it can also be coded.

However, would we make it "hold Constantinople for 60 turns" or "get a second Greek city (Athens,Adrianopolis or Thessaloníki)".

If we keep the historical goal "hold Constantinople for 60 years", then I propose the a-historic one to be: "Unite Italy or build one colony".

 

[jessiecat]

We already have an or goal for Moscow and it is codable. The 60 year one is more tricky, but it can also be coded.

However, would we make it "hold Constantinople for 60 turns" or "get a second Greek city (Athens,Adrianopolis or Thessaloníki)".

If we keep the historical goal "hold Constantinople for 60 years", then I propose the a-historic one to be: "Unite Italy or build one colony".

OK. Great if it can be done. 2."Hold Constantinople for 30 turns" and 3."Unite Italy" would be my choice, I think.

 

[merijn_v1]

I like: Hold Constantinople for 30 turns. But it won't be difficult. When you have it, Byzantium will collapse. So you haven't an enemy left. You just have to wait, not defend.

 

[Jusos2108]

Having looked at your list, I really don't think there's much need to change the UHVs before we get to Beta, as I think Sedna's already suggested. Improving UHV goals is very much what we should be doing during Beta testing. Just making them harder is not the answer either at this stage as we need doable goals for new players to test, not just for the experienced veterans.

However, I am interested in your Venice proposals. No.1 is fine though 1400 would allow a bit more gameplay. No.2 is good if holding Constantinople for a fixed period in that time slot is codeable. No.3 is also good but I don't know if it's possible to code a choice of goals like that. Maybe Sedna knows if it can be done. That being said, I like all three. Let's go for it.

I didn't mean that they should be straight in the next version; only that the UHVs could be changed into these at one point. So they are only suggestions, which can be taken into account, when UHVs are being changed.

I also didn't mean the third goal to be a choice between them, rather either one of them. But if you want you can do that as well. I really like the holding goal myself and I remember playing Civ with a holding goal.

In the list Burgundians also have holding goal for Jerusalem,

Spoiler :

Burgundy (500AD)
1. Control the Rhine and Rhone Valleys (from Mediterranean to the North Sea) in 1200AD *
2. Capture Jerusalem before 1300AD and hold it for at least 60 years
3. Control 10 luxury resources in 1450AD

which IMO would be great, since holding Jerusalem under Arabian threat is much harder than holding Contantinople (Byz will collapse) and that would be a nice challenge even for a veteran player. So if those holding UHVs can be coded (as 3miro said), they would bring something special in the mod.

BTW, IMO new players should play with Viceroy, in which everything is easy.

 

[FakeShady]

We already have an or goal for Moscow and it is codable. The 60 year one is more tricky, but it can also be coded.

However, would we make it "hold Constantinople for 60 turns" or "get a second Greek city (Athens,Adrianopolis or Thessaloníki)".

If we keep the historical goal "hold Constantinople for 60 years", then I propose the a-historic one to be: "Unite Italy or build one colony".

Unite Italy ain't really Venice's thing to do. More like Rome's job. Control Constantinople is good, though any other capital would also be fine. I propose the "get xxxxx gold by 1700" because i think the Venetian player needs the incentive to build St Marco Cathedral or Marco Polo Embassy. Without the gold UHV, the Venetian player will have no incentive whatsoever to build those wonders. This will give them incentive to get luxury resources too, as they can those those resources for money.

Most important of all, 1600 IS TOO EARLY!! So what if you build a few galleas? For Venice to truly win a "Historical Victory", they have to at least remain strong right into the 1700s. Sure by 1700 they are no longer a real power, but that's what "Historical Victory" is all about, eh? Changing history to create an impact in the future. I say earliest date for completion of all UHVs for Venice be 1700.

P.S Germany needs more units and techs at the start