RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

What he means, I think, is that the AI Germany is often wiped out by barbs as soon as it spawns. This problem needs to be addressed, maybe by increasing their starting defensive units, nerfing the barbs, or both.
As far as Germany founding never founding Protestantism goes, I think the problem lies in their early tech rate. This should be increased a lot, I think. Another problem is early instability. I think Germany should start with Code of Laws so they can build their UB, the Rathaus ASAP. That plus the faster tech rate would give them a much better chance to tech thru to Protestantism, don't you think?:)

As I suggested earlier in this thread. If Germany started with 3 or 4 extra units (defensive units like guisarmes), Code of Laws and a somewhat faster tech rate they might have a chance to survive and maybe found Protestantism in time. If somebody can make those changes for the next Alpha we can test it out.:)
 
I've already made some changes along these lines. Germany now often founds Protestantism.

As I suggested earlier in this thread. If Germany started with 3 or 4 extra units (defensive units like guisarmes), Code of Laws and a somewhat faster tech rate they might have a chance to survive and maybe found Protestantism in time. If somebody can make those changes for the next Alpha we can test it out.:)
 
I understand your point, that if in the game the UHV's end date will be later it means that in this what-if scenario Venice would have a stronger impact on Europe, but my point is that having a more significant goal unrelated to their date (for example instead of having say, 5 of X, have 10 of X) will be just as alt-historically significant but also a lot more challenging and fun.
And I absolutely agree with your statement about Germany, they need to be stronger at the start and have a lot more chance of founding Protestantism (atleast 40% is enough I think).

The Venice non-date related UHV sounds very good to me! :D

For me the Germans need to have at least a 50% chance of founding Protestantism, and another 50% chance of building Imperial Diet. The problem with the Imperial Diet, is that it requires at least 9 cities to build, and Germany simply have too little settlers at the start to do that quick enough. France tends to beat Germany to the Imperial Diet, as Imperial Diet allows Occupation, and Occupation+France UP= ownage. So yeah, the Germans also needs more settlers at the start, in addtion to just more crossbowmen and more techs :)
 
Back to playtesting... I have noticed that the AI in RFCE is really cautious. In fact I don't recall that AI forces had ever seriously (only 1-2 cavalry perhaps) attacked me, not including the spawning battles.

Somebody had also mentioned earlier that AI doesn't even attack, when facing a weaker enemy. Below is screenshot of that behaviour. Also the AI crusaders never attack Jerusalem. Therefore, there might be something wrong with AI. It is also weird that AI doesn't settle good city locations even when having spare settler wondering around. (see sreenshot).
 
And another thing. I know that I said this before, but I am hoping to get a discussion going on about it. The spanish UHV is ridiciously easy, the first condition can be achieved in 1150AD, so that gives you about 450 years to waste on something else. Well you can build the four settlers, needed for second trivial condition, during that time.

So anyway I suggest the following UHV conditions for Spain:

1. Unite Iberia under one rule (by conquest or vassalage) and allow only Catholic faith in 1200AD *
2. Control North Africa from Ceuta to Tunis, Southern Italy, Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia in 1450AD
3. Build 10 Colonial Projects

And here is a Monarch game sreenshot taken when I achieved the first condition to prove that it is very much doable. And I could have done it earlier but I spent 20 turns in peace with Cordobans, (they gave me techs for the peace). :)
 
Back to playtesting... I have noticed that the AI in RFCE is really cautious. In fact I don't recall that AI forces had ever seriously (only 1-2 cavalry perhaps) attacked me, not including the spawning battles.

Somebody had also mentioned earlier that AI doesn't even attack, when facing a weaker enemy. Below is screenshot of that behaviour. Also the AI crusaders never attack Jerusalem. Therefore, there might be something wrong with AI. It is also weird that AI doesn't settle good city locations even when having spare settler wondering around. (see sreenshot).

Perhaps the AI is too much tied on it's war maps. If so, then we might want to expand the settler maps or make the AI less dependent on them. I don't know if that makes such a large difference, but it might be worth a shot. Also, that might be the reason why the Crusaders aren't so likely to attack Jerusalem currently.
 
Perhaps the AI is too much tied on it's war maps. If so, then we might want to expand the settler maps or make the AI less dependent on them. I don't know if that makes such a large difference, but it might be worth a shot. Also, that might be the reason why the Crusaders aren't so likely to attack Jerusalem currently.

That might help in some situations, but in the screenshot I am Spain and France is my vassal and we are at war against England. So why doesn't Louis take couple of his macemen and trebuchets to capture Calais and/or to capture Cherbourg. They are both weakly defended and definetly in Louis' war and settler maps.:confused:

But any help is better than none... :)
 
Ludvig??? Do you mean Louis???
 
Yes he means Louis, the thing is in most Germanic languages Louis is translated as Ludwig. But I don't know from which country the user is.
 
I think archery range should become obsolete with discovery of flintlock, so it disappears from city production screen.

Good idea. And if you discover flintlock, you can build an arsenal (other name because of the Venice UB). This give XP to gunpowder units.
 
Yes, I see your point about the military AI being too passive, esp. for vassals. I think, though, that, at least the vassal part of it has been a BtS problem as well...
 
Good idea. And if you discover flintlock, you can build an arsenal (other name because of the Venice UB). This give XP to gunpowder units.

I think it's called a gunsmith or possibly an armourer (or armorer in US spelling).:D
 
Yes, I see your point about the military AI being too passive, esp. for vassals. I think, though, that, at least the vassal part of it has been a BtS problem as well...

Yeah, you are right about that. BTW, I didn't see on the victory/settings page that AI's behaviour was set to be aggressive. Maybe that should be changed.
 
Hi guys, my first post, first of all well done on a great mod, i'm having a lot of fun. I love my history so being able to recreate medieval England on Civ IV is fantastic. I tend not to play to win UHV, but just to build an empire.

I just finished my first game with England on the medium difficulty (I forget the name; Monarch?). Ended up in second place in 1800 behind a massive Moscovan Empire, and second in terms of tech behind Sweden. I could have been first in tech but i decided to expand my empire and made the mistake of building far too many colonial projects.

Sorry if i go over any common knowledge, but i've only had time to skim a few pages of this thread! Anyway; my feedback, having played once:

- Plague made building cottages unfeasible. Normally i build plenty to boost my tech rate but found that with plague they devolved to hamlets or worse, with 30-40 turns needed to improve. By the time you build up again plague strikes once more. A better idea i think is to build a combo of farms and workshops (especially with the English unique ability)

- The French unique ability was very frustrating. I focussed my cities of Caen and Calais on culture, building Cathedrals etc there, managing to outproduce the French cities in terms of cultural output. I even culture bombed a great artist in each of them. But nothing could stop the slow but inevitable closing in of French cultural borders onto my cities, until they were almost surrounded and thus had next to no production left. I am playing again and have managed to avoid this, but only after a successful war which led to them eventually offering to be my vassal!

- The English Longbowman was quality, i was able to mass produce them to defend my cities. I was sad when i got to musketmen i was no longer able to produce my cheap longbowmen but that is unavoidable i guess.

- There was a problem with lots of Civs collapsing early. Kiev, Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria, Poland, Norse, Netherlands (in fairness i wiped them out!) and others all disappeared, most before i had met them. All of the ones that survived ended up extremely stable though.

- On the other hand there didn't seem to be a big enough penalty for expansion, for England at least. As England i had Caen and Calais which had flipped to me, and expanded east when the Dutch arrived and declared war on me. Germany was empty so i built over most of what is now Germany, a city in Denmark and later conquered much of an independent Poland. Yet my stability rating stayed solid, not even a sniff of civil war :lol:

- Moscow grew enormous, i guess due to the early collapse of Kiev. I mean really big. I was friendly to them but i saw at one point a Moscovan army of 149 musketmen walking through my lands! They built tons of cities and lots of farms. I couldn't catch their score due to their massive growth. I'm not sure how accurate this is? It may have been at least partly due to the lack of a Polish and Kievan empire in fairness.

- Sweden spawned at some point and became my main rivals. They also founded Protestantism before i met them. By this time i had far outstripped the French in terms of research and we were on good terms, i didn't want war as they had a large number of Knights. Sweden were building all the wonders i wanted but luckily i got a great spy and was able to ruin their production a couple of times which was sweet. In the end i grew my empire too large and they beat me to the end of the tech tree quite easily (though neither of us completed the industrial revolution in time)

I have started a second game and there's way more Civs around, so maybe i was unlucky last time.

More generally, i really liked the medieval feel of mod, and the new resources, units etc and graphical updates are excellent, it really is like playing a new game :goodjob:
 
Re: Expansion Penalty: It is a known problem, stability should be lessened more per city number, especially if out of the settler map (Germany for UK, eg)
Re: Grand Powers: Well, it is kinda realistic that Russia (Muscovy to be more accurate), England, Frnace and Sweden (possibly) were of the most strong out there. I think though, that the Muscovy case was more caused by the fact it was the only Slavic civilization standing in your game. Perhaps Sweden should be tweaked a bit in research terms.

Anyway, nice to hear some positive feedback. :)
 
The main guideline for UHV in RFC is always 2 historical goals, and one goal that has never been archived in real world (but part of the cultural context).

The first UHV condition should be about the expansion and colonization in the east Mediterranean: Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in Greece, Crete, Cyprus.
Cyprus became officially part of the Republic of Venice in 1489, so that the deadline for this goal should be around that time.

I quite don't understand why in the current conditions there is to conquer Rhodes.
It was only a temporary conquest for Venice, of rather minor importance.

An other goal should be connected to the control of the "east" with the conquest of Constantinople (1204).
However this is much part of the first condition because as a result of the partition of the Byzantine Empire which followed the sack of Constantinople, Venice gained some strategic territories in the Aegean Sea (three-eighths of the Byzantine Empire), including the islands of Crete and Euboea.

The most important aspect of the republic of Venice was its commercial power due to the control of trading of "luxury resources" like spices and silk from the "East".
This should be the second goal for the UHV.

An other rather important historical fact was the many wars and rivalry with neighbors states.
Venice had a very small inland territory (but very important because it was the production backwater for the Republic and the real-estate investment for the nobles) and rather aggressive neighbors.
Venice had to fight against other states for the control of trading routes (mostly against Genoa), and control of territory around their trading posts.
However Venice never had the aspiration of conquering all of Italy.

so in short for the Venice UHV should be:

Venetia (800AD)
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in Greece, Crete, Cyprus and conquer Constantinople by 1500 (date can be adjusted to match turns).

2. Control X luxury resources by 1600AD

3. Conquer Milan (never happened in reality but that's the non-historical goal and represent Venice fight in Italy, and bring her in contrast against Genoa)


800px-Repubblica_di_Venezia.png





800px-Venezianische_Kolonien.png
 
I like your ideas, Wolfigor. Nice historical maps too. I agree with your proposed UHVs for Venice although conquering Constantinople by 1500 would be too easy. Maybe being in control in 1400 would be better. Also the 3rd. UHV should be a bit harder, like being in control of mainland Italy north of Rome (by conquering or vassalage) by X date (1700?) would be more of a challenge and allow Venice enough playing time to use their UU and UB to dominate the Eastern Med.
 
so in short for the Venice UHV should be:

Venetia (800AD)
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in Greece, Crete, Cyprus and conquer Constantinople by 1500 (date can be adjusted to match turns).

2. Control X luxury resources by 1600AD

3. Conquer Milan (never happened in reality but that's the non-historical goal and represent Venice fight in Italy, and bring her in contrast against Genoa)

I also agree with your post wolfigor, but for gameplay reasons (too easy) I would want these UHV conditions to be ramped up in difficulty.

I would suggest:

  • 1. Control (at least 8 cities including Crete, Cyprus and Constantinople and nobody else has any cities) the maximum historical extent of the Venetian territories (as previously described on the posted maps) by 1400AD.

This would mean that other than a crusade to Constantinople, Venice would have to focus on building settlers much more than the other suggested variants on this condition. It would also encourage settling of all of the Peloponese and Dalmatian coastline which the previously suggested conditions don't actually do. The AI civs hardly give Venice any competition for the Venetian UHV area is what I find the biggest problem to overcome here.

  • 2. Control (by trade or working resources for yourself) one of every happiness resource in 1600AD.

This is much more interesting than control X resources and still in line with the historical situation that Venice was actually able to achieve. Not impossible by any means, but would require some effort to achieve - including perhaps settling the far-flung corners of the map with trading outposts.

  • 3. Conquer or vassalize Genoa and Milan in 1700AD

This is what your previous suggestion is hinting at, i.e. a war with Genoa, so why not actually make it interesting? I can conquer Milan when playing Venice before Genoa even spawns without much difficulty. Genoa doesn't usually take Milan back either. But making the condition require the control of both Genoa and Milan, specifically after the first two "historical" goals have been completed - now that is a much more worthy challenge for the final UHV condition.
 
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