I've been trying to say that the science bonus is inherent to Printing Press and the mass production of books not Protestantism, also of the 21 projects 14 were built by Catholic Countries and of the wonders in the same column and beyond Printing Press only one (Amsterdam Beurs) is Protestant
RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread
- Thread starter st.lucifer
- Start date
kochman
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 10,818
Ok, as mentioned about 5 times by various people...
The ability of the common man to read the bible, the major philosophical book of the day, because it was now written in their language instead of Latin, stimulated creative thinking/discover/etc in Protestant countries more so than others in Europe.
In the period, the Protestant countries, once at peace and not forced to fight for survival, this thinking really entered us into the Enlightenment, etc.
I guess you will never agree with it, as you seem to be in a very small minority here who disagrees with the bonus... by now surely the designers of the mod have seen your argument... and not cared to say they will change it.
The ability of the common man to read the bible, the major philosophical book of the day, because it was now written in their language instead of Latin, stimulated creative thinking/discover/etc in Protestant countries more so than others in Europe.
In the period, the Protestant countries, once at peace and not forced to fight for survival, this thinking really entered us into the Enlightenment, etc.
I guess you will never agree with it, as you seem to be in a very small minority here who disagrees with the bonus... by now surely the designers of the mod have seen your argument... and not cared to say they will change it.
What about the project and wonders bonus?
Power of religions seems to be Orthodoxy=Protestantism->Catholicism->Islam
To bring something resembling equality Islam needs a big boost and Catholicism a medium boost (IMO Orthodoxy is better than Protestantism but that's probably play style)
Duke of Awesome
Warlord
i can understand the beaker bonus of protestantism but the wonder thing just makes no sense historically. empowerment of the individual? thats nowhere near good enough a reason to me
kochman
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 10,818
Well, the production rates of those countries went up dramatically... does that make more sense?
They were also the first to industrialize later.
Game terms, which echo real life in a way, mean that these few protestant countries, without really amping things up, would have been crushed by the massive powers of the established Catholic forces...
Does that make more sense?
So, in the game, if a couple of nations switch, they need the bonuses to have a chance at success... because it comes late, starts your faith points at zero, etc...
I think you guys are mistaking game mechanics for social commentary.
They were also the first to industrialize later.
Game terms, which echo real life in a way, mean that these few protestant countries, without really amping things up, would have been crushed by the massive powers of the established Catholic forces...
Does that make more sense?
So, in the game, if a couple of nations switch, they need the bonuses to have a chance at success... because it comes late, starts your faith points at zero, etc...
I think you guys are mistaking game mechanics for social commentary.
One wonder that was built by a Protestant after printing press, wouldn't this make them less likely to go to the correct civ? Though it's more of a merchant republic wonder
kochman
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 10,818
I can see you will never comprehend this... it's pretty simple really.
See my last comment, and mull it over until it makes sense. You are taking things too literally when they should be viewed in terms of game and mod mechanics.
I am pretty much done with the why you think Protestantism should be nerfed topic.
See my last comment, and mull it over until it makes sense. You are taking things too literally when they should be viewed in terms of game and mod mechanics.
I am pretty much done with the why you think Protestantism should be nerfed topic.
Wessel V1
Emperor
Agreed 100%.
Why do you guys say that the Islam is the worst religion of this game? I mean, in game terms. Cheaper units and more growth guarantee excellent cities with unbelievable power. Combined with +2 stability on conquest, your empire is basically set in stone. Really, I think Catholicism is, if not by far, the worst religion now. Diplomatic relations are a laugh since all Catholics want to trade with you anyway, so the only benefit would be gifts from the Pope, which is only useful before 1000 AD. Yes, the same thing can be said for units (who needs 1 hammer Musketmen?), but the growth modifier is a serious power combined with the Hansaetic League. Orthodoxy gives more stability but not much, same thing could be said for the maintenance cut.
Hamir
Chieftain
Quick note, Protestantism spread in my lands (England) and I converted. It said all of my Catholic buildings would change but actually only some of them did, in a random fashion, or at least that's how it seemed to me. At least 1/3rd of Catholic Churches have remained. Has this happened to anyone else / is it a recognised issue? TBH i haven't really bothered looking in past games, or at least can't remember 
JediClemente
Prince
Really, why do some people think religions must be balanced in RFCE? Same as with the civs, they're different. Fine for me.
But as pointed out before, Catholicism should not be useless after Printing Press. That's the only change I'd like.
It's supposed to be like that. The conversion isn't complete.
But as pointed out before, Catholicism should not be useless after Printing Press. That's the only change I'd like.
Quick note, Protestantism spread in my lands (England) and I converted. It said all of my Catholic buildings would change but actually only some of them did, in a random fashion, or at least that's how it seemed to me. At least 1/3rd of Catholic Churches have remained. Has this happened to anyone else / is it a recognised issue? TBH i haven't really bothered looking in past games, or at least can't remember
It's supposed to be like that. The conversion isn't complete.
It makes much more sense now, maybe this should be added to the RFCE page?
England didn't purge all the Catholics in a day, it got quite uglyQuick note, Protestantism spread in my lands (England) and I converted. It said all of my Catholic buildings would change but actually only some of them did, in a random fashion, or at least that's how it seemed to me. At least 1/3rd of Catholic Churches have remained. Has this happened to anyone else / is it a recognised issue? TBH i haven't really bothered looking in past games, or at least can't remember
So you suggest Counter-Reformation?
Duke of Awesome
Warlord
counter reformation might be interesting. it could happen a couple of turns after the reformation to the remaining catholic countries. if they agree to the counter reformation they could get faith points and a decreased chance of protestantism spreading in their city and people who declined it would get better relations with protestant countries?
kochman
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 10,818
England NEVER purged all the Catholics. It has long been a country that has many catholics and protestants, like Germany.
Interesting idea... but how would it work?civ_king said:
All it really did was make the Catholic Church different in ways that are basically intangible in terms of game mechanics... but I would be interested to hear ideas about it.
I was wondering how on earth does Protestantism increase wonder production, until i read this post. I think it does make sense.
IMO Catholicism is very weak in this game and needs something. Orthodoxy and Protestantism seems ok to me. I havent tested Islam much yet, but from my experiences in playing a very Islamic Ottoman, my production rate is way too strong
The problem with Islam, is that no matter what, the Arabs always collapse very quickly, that's why I suggested that they and the Cordobans should be respawned later in the game. The Cordobans as the Almoravids, then later as the Almohads, and have the Arabs respawn as the Fatimids, or Ayyubids and later as the Mamluks. So that really should be implemented.
@Kochman
I also would be very interested in a counter-reformation, and as someone said before, it would stop protestantism, from entering the remaining Catholic nations (or make it much harder to spread there). I was also thinking that it could spawn the Jesuits, but what they would do, I'm not sure.
@Kochman
I also would be very interested in a counter-reformation, and as someone said before, it would stop protestantism, from entering the remaining Catholic nations (or make it much harder to spread there). I was also thinking that it could spawn the Jesuits, but what they would do, I'm not sure.
kochman
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2009
- Messages
- 10,818
We know you think that, you have said it 100 times. Why not just put it in your signature already?
Well, that's the thing, because it wasn't the counter-reformation that stopped Protestantism from entering the remaining catholic countries...
It was the inquisition in Spain/Portugal/Italy, murder in France, people leaving to escape persecution, etc...
All the counter-reformation really did was acknowledge and fix some of the protests that the Protestants had.
It was violence that stopped Protestantism's spread.
JediClemente
Prince
Arabs already respawn around 1140. And their collapse before that is due to the killing combination of first/second crusade + Seljuks.
That is all fine, my concern is the ability of the catholic civ that takes the Holy Land in a Crusade to keep it for the rest of the game. Spawning barb units shouldn't be too difficult, would it?
And yes, I propose Counter-Reformation. For example, a number of turns after Protestantism appears, it could say on-screen:
"Counter-Reformation: The Roman Church has put years of inaction behind, and finally the Council of Trento is over. Now there's a real aim to fight back protestantism from the pulpits."
Then, a new bonus system has to be defined, different than before Printing Press. No bonus given randomly from the Pope, but a direct one from faith points as with the other religions. And of course it shouldn't be similar to the existing ones.
A bonus for culture and/or espionage points? Reduction for army maintenance cost? I don't know. Something.
That is all fine, my concern is the ability of the catholic civ that takes the Holy Land in a Crusade to keep it for the rest of the game. Spawning barb units shouldn't be too difficult, would it?
And yes, I propose Counter-Reformation. For example, a number of turns after Protestantism appears, it could say on-screen:
"Counter-Reformation: The Roman Church has put years of inaction behind, and finally the Council of Trento is over. Now there's a real aim to fight back protestantism from the pulpits."
Then, a new bonus system has to be defined, different than before Printing Press. No bonus given randomly from the Pope, but a direct one from faith points as with the other religions. And of course it shouldn't be similar to the existing ones.
A bonus for culture and/or espionage points? Reduction for army maintenance cost? I don't know. Something.
Duke of Awesome
Warlord
a reduction for army maintenance makes sense since the catholic countries (France Spain Austria) had big armies historically.
Well thats all fine and dandy, but I've never seen them reconquer the Holy Land, nor do they respawn in Egypt, like I've said. That is why I've been saying that in 1140 (or whenever), they should respawn in Egypt as the Ayyubids with a large army, with the intent of regaining Jerusalem, and the rest of the Holy Land
oh and yes I agree with duke of awesome, but then again, Germany (Prussia) and I think Sweden as well, had quite huge armies as well, especially the former
