RFC Europe: Small bugs/fixes

[3Miro]

My point is that being obsoleted should not remove the culture bonus.
Furthermore, I think all the desigh about Pagan let the wonder SoU and building PS be too useless to be built.

Since there is no defensive bonus from culture level of cities and borders skirmish is not a big thing in the very large and historical map, culture is only used to expand cities to 21 (or to achieve some UHV).

One of the aspects of Civilization IV that I don't like is that the more religion you get, it always leads to more and better results for you. The Middle Ages is the time of prosecutions and total intolerance and hence we should take a different approach.

In most cases, when Christians took over, they would simply destroy the Pagan shrines. Paganism was prosecuted under any of the State Religions that we have in the mod, hence Pagan shrines shouldn't provide any bonus under non-Paganism civic.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I can make it so that you can only build Pagan Shrines with Paganism Civic and you get +1 Culture only if you are running Paganism Civic. Then we can make the Shrines obsolete much later. This would help Lithuania as well.

Sounds good
(actually I thought this is already implemented, my bad )

 

[Kartoffelvampir]

Hungary is somehow at war with it's master Austria

Spoiler :

Also, Ottoman's won later through domination victory, after vassalizing Moscow. Not sure if that should be fix'd, or if it simply was bad luck.

 

[3Miro]

Hungary is somehow at war with it's master Austria

I will check for that.

Spoiler :

View attachment 310630

Also, Ottoman's won later through domination victory, after vassalizing Moscow. Not sure if that should be fix'd, or if it simply was bad luck.

In general I don't want to restrict players to just the UHV conditions. Even though it may be either impossible or next to impossible for some nations, I would like to see the conquest, domination and culture available for all civs. After all, we don't have space race or diplomatic victories.

The Ottomans are historically huge and so are the Russians, but why would Moscow vassalize to Turkey, were they heavily under attack or something. Also, who did you play with, every Christian player should keep an eye for the Ottomans and try to stop them if possible.

 

[AbsintheRed]

He was playing with England
I will check the Russain leaders' willingness to vassalize, they should be hard to vassalize
And probably they shouldn't peacevassal at all, to avoid easy domination wins like this

 

[Kartoffelvampir]

The Ottomans are historically huge and so are the Russians, but why would Moscow vassalize to Turkey, were they heavily under attack or something. Also, who did you play with, every Christian player should keep an eye for the Ottomans and try to stop them if possible.

Moscow was at war with Lithuania (but winning) as well with Hungary and Austria (who had 3 cities each), but the Turkish army was huge, and extremly advanced.

I played England and was going for the UHV. Plus, Austria didn't opened Borders despite pleased, so i thought stopping them wasn't worth it. Guess i was wrong.

 

[3Miro]

Moscow was at war with Lithuania (but winning) as well with Hungary and Austria (who had 3 cities each), but the Turkish army was huge, and extremly advanced.

I played England and was going for the UHV. Plus, Austria didn't opened Borders despite pleased, so i thought stopping them wasn't worth it. Guess i was wrong.

Are you sure it was Vassalage and not Permanent Alliance. A strong Moscow shouldn't vassalize like that.

 

[pku_dwest]

One of the aspects of Civilization IV that I don't like is that the more religion you get, it always leads to more and better results for you. The Middle Ages is the time of prosecutions and total intolerance and hence we should take a different approach.

In most cases, when Christians took over, they would simply destroy the Pagan shrines. Paganism was prosecuted under any of the State Religions that we have in the mod, hence Pagan shrines shouldn't provide any bonus under non-Paganism civic.

I agree with you. I never defend that Pagan shrines should provide bonus under non-Paganism civic. I just think it should provide culture after obsoleted under Paganism. In current version, it won't +1 after discovering tech Monasticism even under Paganism.

By the way, I think a mod balanced well should get a right point between the historic feature and the gameplay. For example, the culture is more useless than in BTS. In the current version, it don't provide city defensive bonus; the map is large and historic then culture competition on an importent plot has gone. On this way, I think it is fair to decrease the cost of cultural buildings and wonders. Shrine of Uppsala has worse effect and is more expansive than Stonehence in BTS and cites provide less hammers than in BTS because the map design and chopping removed.

 

[Kartoffelvampir]

Uploaded the save, after the capitulation. Moscow wasn't really weak (4th in points and power), but the ottomans were ridiculously strong. They had more Military than everyone else combined and technology on the same level as me, and i was going for the "industrial era" goal as the english

 

[3Miro]

Uploaded the save, after the capitulation. Moscow wasn't really weak (4th in points and power), but the ottomans were ridiculously strong. They had more Military than everyone else combined and technology on the same level as me, and i was going for the "industrial era" goal as the english

For the longest time the Turks were too weak. We finally figured out how to boost their power, so now they are too strong. We will fix that in the future.

But you are right, Moscow shouldn't capitulate to the Ottomans that easy.

 

[3Miro]

I agree with you. I never defend that Pagan shrines should provide bonus under non-Paganism civic. I just think it should provide culture after obsoleted under Paganism. In current version, it won't +1 after discovering tech Monasticism even under Paganism.

We will do that for the next version.

By the way, I think a mod balanced well should get a right point between the historic feature and the gameplay. For example, the culture is more useless than in BTS. In the current version, it don't provide city defensive bonus; the map is large and historic then culture competition on an importent plot has gone. On this way, I think it is fair to decrease the cost of cultural buildings and wonders. Shrine of Uppsala has worse effect and is more expansive than Stonehence in BTS and cites provide less hammers than in BTS because the map design and chopping removed.

Culture is still useful in the newly conquered cities to convert the population. High percentage of foreign Culture is bad for stability. Also, there are very few purely cultural buildings. You also get the great Prophet points, although we should probably increase those to +2.

Culture is also good for defense, as it slows enemy armies and it gives you early warning vision against barbarians. With Horse Archers and Keshiks moving 3 tiles a turn, you want some culture to defend.

Shrine of Uppsala is most useful specifically for the 21-tiles early on. Without a religion, it is hard to get any culture boost. The wonder is also the cheapest of all world wonders, you shouldn't compare this mod to regular BtS, things are deliberately made very different.

Shrine of Uppsala is specifically set for the Vikings and it is pretty fitting as is.

EDIT: sorry, I had an error in the exact effect of the Shrine of Uppsala.

 

[pku_dwest]

Culture is still useful in the newly conquered cities to convert the population. High percentage of foreign Culture is bad for stability. Also, there are very few purely cultural buildings. You also get the great Prophet points, although we should probably increase those to +2.

Culture is also good for defense, as it slows enemy armies and it gives you early warning vision against barbarians. With Horse Archers and Keshiks moving 3 tiles a turn, you want some culture to defend.

Shrine of Uppsala is most useful specifically for the 21-tiles early on. Without a religion, it is hard to get any culture boost. The wonder is also the cheapest of all world wonders, you shouldn't compare this mod to regular BtS, things are deliberately made very different.

Shrine of Uppsala is specifically set for the Vikings and it is pretty fitting as is.

EDIT: sorry, I had an error in the exact effect of the Shrine of Uppsala.

Culture never works well to convert populations. And in fact, I never need to do so because if it is a big trouble ,to destroy the civil is a better solution. I disagree "Culture is also good for defense" either. Slowing enemies is non-sense, more important thing is to make sure enough units are available. ENOUGH is very important under babarian or mongo invasions because the chance of lost units increases rapidly if you are forced to use some injured unit to defend. And once you lost a unit, the situaation would get worse further. I don't understand why I need culture to defend enemies moving 3 tiles a turn , accumulating 240 culture only for one turn early warning? If you don't get enough defensive units, what can be done in the turn? If you do have enough units, you do not need the turn to be warned earlier.

So it is a fact that to expand to 21 plots is the most useful effect of culture if there is no cultural UHV, other effect can be negligible.

The best way to accumulate 10 culture to expand 21 plots in the current version without region is to convert hammer to culture. It is enabled very early and the 2 necessary techs are very cheap. So the building and wonder for pagan are not wealthy to be built.

 

[3Miro]

Culture never works well to convert populations. And in fact, I never need to do so because if it is a big trouble ,to destroy the civil is a better solution. I disagree "Culture is also good for defense" either. Slowing enemies is non-sense, more important thing is to make sure enough units are available. ENOUGH is very important under babarian or mongo invasions because the chance of lost units increases rapidly if you are forced to use some injured unit to defend. And once you lost a unit, the situaation would get worse further. I don't understand why I need culture to defend enemies moving 3 tiles a turn , accumulating 240 culture only for one turn early warning? If you don't get enough defensive units, what can be done in the turn? If you do have enough units, you do not need the turn to be warned earlier.

So it is a fact that to expand to 21 plots is the most useful effect of culture if there is no cultural UHV, other effect can be negligible.

The best way to accumulate 10 culture to expand 21 plots in the current version without region is to convert hammer to culture. It is enabled very early and the 2 necessary techs are very cheap. So the building and wonder for pagan are not wealthy to be built.

I don't get your point, are you talking about the Shrine of Uppsala or Culture in general.

Culture in general is less important then in BtS. It is really important for some nations like Portugal and Netherlands that are surrounded by powerful civilizations, less important for others. I don't see a problem.

Shrine of Uppsala is the cheapest World Wonder and it gives a bonus of +3 happy in the city where it is build. It also saves you the trouble to research the Culture techs and lets you focus on expansion and war.

PS: Culture can be used to block the spawn of lesser Barbarins, the Mongols and Seljuks would spawn no matter what, but the rest will only spawn only if you haven't covered enough territory with culture.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The best way to accumulate 10 culture to expand 21 plots in the current version without region is to convert hammer to culture. It is enabled very early and the 2 necessary techs are very cheap. So the building and wonder for pagan are not wealthy to be built.

Actually I agree, but only with the fact that achieving the first culture expansion is way too easy
I was thinking of increasing the amount to 30 culture, and moving the "build" culture option later on the tech tree

 

[3Miro]

Actually I agree, but only with the fact that achieving the first culture expansion is way too easy
I was thinking of increasing the amount to 30 culture, and moving the "build" culture option later on the tech tree

That may not be a bad idea. I agree with moving the Culture building to some later time, but for the 10 points, remember that those are tied to the Mercenaries as well.

Do 20 points first, and see how it goes, 30 might be too much.

 

[Wessel V1]

I think that's a good idea, but it needs to be tested. As it takes several more turns to grow to the BFC, it might slow down early civs severely. Especially second and third cities might be hampered, as you have to rely on religion to spread, and you'll need to build monasteries and churches quickly. I think both effects are desirable but it might change balance.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah, this should be tested of course
I won't go over 30, that's for sure
20 may be too low, but it depends on which tech enables the build culture option

EDIT: I think the most suitable tech is Literature
But that's not too late, so maybe 30 culture will work
Also, I will probably move all temples and the Shrine of Uppsala wonder to the Religious Art tech
This way Religious Art will keep it's culture boosting role

 

[3Miro]

Yeah, this should be tested of course
I won't go over 30, that's for sure
20 may be too low, but it depends on which tech enables the build culture option

EDIT: I think the most suitable tech is Literature
But that's not too late, so maybe 30 culture will work
Also, I will probably move all temples and the Shrine of Uppsala wonder to the Religious Art tech
This way Religious Art will keep it's culture boosting role

The Norse should be able to build the shrine. Now they can do that as soon as they spawn, it may be problematic if they have to research techs first. Keep the shrine where it is, temples can move.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The Norse should be able to build the shrine. Now they can do that as soon as they spawn, it may be problematic if they have to research techs first. Keep the shrine where it is, temples can move.

Religious Art is one of their first researchable techs, and very cheap
I don't think it's a big difference, but I can move the shrine back to Architecture if you really prefer it that way

EDIT: Just generated a Norse start: those first 2 techs can be researched in 7-8 turns, while the Pagan Shrine is about 10 turns in your initial cities
So I would keep the Shrine of Uppsala on Religious Art, it isn't restricting at all

 

[pku_dwest]

I talk about the culture generally from my first post, at least I want to.

I think the culture is too useless because there is little longtime benefit. The advantages of high culture you said are listed and I do not think they stand:

1.Culture is still useful in the newly conquered cities to convert the population;

2.You early warning vision against barbarians;

3.Culture can be used to block the spawn of lesser Barbarins.

For 1, culture does not work well. I'm not able to give the reference of how to calculate the culture percentage in a plot especially in a city plot, but I think this won't trouble you. The conclusion is that how many turns the city generate culture is much important than how much culture it generate 1 turn. So convert the populations in a conquered cities in a few turn is impossiable.

For 2, the dominate fact to fight against barbarians is the number of unit instend of culture. Fighting against babarians is a very important part of a stratagy, if someone only remenber to defend babarians after see them, he or she would be defeated all the time. So a earlier warning is no use. For example, when I play a french game, I train at least 6 archers or swordmen and a settler to settle on a hill on the east border, then all the barbarians in the mid-europe come. The city may be attacked 10 times in a turn. If I do not have at least 6 defenders in the city, the attackers have a very fat chance to kill at least one. And once I lost a unit, if I can not move another one to the city, more units would be lost in the next turn and the city would lost in a few turns. In cases like this, culture helps nothing.

For 3, if you train enough units, spawn of babarins is a bonus instead of a penalty. Barbarians provide so much experience for my units that sometimes I hope there are more babarians. Continue the french game, the city defence trains several archers and swordmen with 3 promotions which help me very much in the later game. The swordmen with city raider II or III help me to conqure cities around very much they have very good odds even when versus crossbowmen so the Bergundy and German civil can be destroyed easily 5 turns after they spawn. The archers with 3 promotions help me to defend the north berserkers, I even do not need to build a city wall.

In BTS, culture provides defensive bonus. More important thing is that the bonus is balanced very ingeniously. For example, consider axemen with city raider I vs. archers with no-promotion (a representive early rush). When archers defend in a non-culture city, axemen wins more but if the city has 10 culture, archers wins more. 10 culture may change the result of a war. If whether the city has no culture or 10 culture, the axemen or archers have their advantage, the value of the culture would decrease very much.