RFC - Simplified Opening Platform

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I've been working on a rough outline for a pre-Noble Strategy guide, but it hasn't gelled as I would like, so let's see if anybody else can see the way clear.

The basic notion is to propose a plan which will be generally successful in establishing a winning position for a beginner at Warlord/Noble level, concentrating on the big picture items while eliminating any optional complexity. A successful outcome establishes a sound position for the player, leaving some flexibility in the opening and room in the middle game for exploration, without (I hope) leaving the novice trapped in a script.

I think a reasonable definition of "sound position" is a sustainable position, balanced in land, power, and gnp. That probably translates to "first successful war and recovery".

Because I think this type of guide will be more successful if it is kept as simple as possible, I think the following ideas are off the table

• Slavery
• Rushing
• City Specialization
• Diplomacy
• Espionage
• Religions
• World Wonders
• Specialists
• Binary Research

I tend to think about this project in terms of check points, which are probably spaced about 15 turns apart.

It seems to me that the tech pattern ought to look something like

• Food techs
• Production techs (BW)
• Expansion techs (Myst, Wheel, Pottery)
• Research (Writing)
• Hereditary Rule (Monarchy)
• ???
• Siege (Construction)

I can't quite persuade myself that siege is the next big idea after HR. Alphabet? Currency? HBR?

 

[Shafi]

Alphabet.

 

[CHEESE!]

Alphabet/Currency. IW if there is jungle/open spaces.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

• Hereditary Rule (Monarchy)
• ???

I think it's best after writing to learn how to choose a tech which will allow you to enter in the trade loop.

Spoiler for details :

Usually, one of Aesthetics, alphabet, mathematic, or monarchy, COL, IW.
Monarchy and col need meditation, priesthood, and trading alphabet against IW is a solution only for Romans (because this civ can use very early IW, and because you will have to research half of alpha to get it).
The important thing is that once you have it, you can trade for alphabet (putting some turns of research in it first), and then backfill the rest. Monarchy is extremely important for vertical growth, but most of the times you want to trade for it rather than researching it

to stay in the spirit of the thread:

• Writing
• Good trade bait
• Trade for important classical techs (monarchy, math, alphabet are must have)
• Construction (war path), Currency (peace path)

 

[JujuLautre]

I tried to do that some time ago; never really gotten into reworking it or gotten the time though, but do not hesitate to look at my guide if you need inspiration.

On a different note, I do not know why you used RFC in your title but it's very misleading: I'm a little bit of a Rhye's and Fall of Civilizations addict myself

 

[troytheface]

the idea is sound- the criterea is flawed and too long.

Condensing some of the stronger guides (Sistuili) would still only appeal to a minority

I suggest - Victory conditions
................Units and War
............... Commerce (Wealth), Science, Culture, Espionage

Or the codified Attacko style of icon driven play

 

[nbcman]

Alphabet/Currency. IW if there is jungle/open spaces.

I would also go IW if I didn't have copper or horses-unless I was playing a civ with a resourceless UU.

 

[dalamb]

I'm still learning Noble, and used to be a teacher, so I hope these comments are relevant. I do not recall what specific lessons got me up to the Warlord level; is that the main thing you're looking at? or is the Warlord-to-Noble transition I'm going through relevant?

Pointing to sample games and walkthroughs might help, if the walkthroughs are aimed at teaching beginners. The Nobles Club used to be a good place to get that, but nowadays most players are at higher levels and their walkthroughs won't help beginners as much as they used to -- though people are still nice about answering naive questions.

You need a statement up front that what works at the beginner level is just an approximation, and that things will change as you learn more, even at the same difficulty level. For example, if you say "food techs first" then they/we have to unlearn part of that later. Mining > BW for slavery is pretty critical eventually, but if you're avoiding whipping, that path may be less relevant than getting food techs up. You might want to recommend some civilizations that start with Agriculture or Fishing, for example, rather than those that start with, say, Mysticism and Hunting. Maybe even point out "use Regenerate Map if your starting location doesn't have the food your civ is good at". "Regenerate Map" might seem like an advanced sort of feature, but it can make actually playing the game a lot easier. Similarly, "custom game/ no barbarians" might be a good simplifier to point out.

I'm a builder at heart, but have no idea how many beginners are that way. The hardest lesson I've had to learn in getting to Noble is the necessity of preparing for war, at least a defensive one -- but somehow I was able to just muddle through at lower levels with some quite primitive strategies that I no longer recall.

When to build your first settler and where to send him wasn't all that obvious at first. I think I still take too long at creating a second city. I needed to learn that courthouses become necessary around 4 cities; maybe that needs to be mentioned, too.

Isolated starts might be best at the lowest levels. You tech fast enough that trading for techs is not as critical. Learning about tech trading strategy is necessary at some point, but you need to think about when to teach that lesson. I'm still learning it, so I suspect the warlord-to-Noble transition needs it, but if you're aiming lower than that, maybe it can/should be deferred.

I will try to think of more comments later today.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm still learning Noble, and used to be a teacher, so I hope these comments are relevant. I do not recall what specific lessons got me up to the Warlord level; is that the main thing you're looking at? or is the Warlord-to-Noble transition I'm going through relevant?

It's probably relevant.

Pointing to sample games and walkthroughs might help, if the walkthroughs are aimed at teaching beginners.

I'm intending walkthrus, at least through the opening. I've been scrimmaging against my outline, which is why I know that I've got a gap that I'm not happy with.

Part of the inspiration I'm drawing from is Seirawan's Winning Chess Openings, where in his chapter "An Opening Solution" he proposes using the Barcza opening, not so much as a weapon but instead as a "this will get you through the opening safely so you can play chess" solution.

This is similar to what I think I'm after: an easy structure that puts the player into winnable middle game on a consistent basis.

I believe that idea can be combined with an illustration of some of the major elements that new players miss (HR, to choose a particular example, or training "enough" workers).

 

[peppe1]

I thought MI6agent showed an interesting opening in the thread he started:
[Series] 6 city is enough, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326706. I don't recall it being a strict opening or guide, so its not going to help a noble player, but the broad strokes are similar.

I learned the game using SE, so his thread helped me try out some cottage games. I usually give it a quick look over when I plan to try another game with cottages (trying to expand my toolbox).

I will second that slavery should be introduced with chopping, since they come early and are powerful. Don't talk about optimal whipping and whatnot. Just recommend when to switch to slavery and when to do the first whip of the game and first whip in each city.

Other things to target are the early goals techs are fairly easy to outline, but how many cities, and when are question i think most have. For any empire i always wonder, do I have enough cities, beakers, etc. What are simple ways for a new player to size themselves up and identify where to improve their empire or confirm they are ok. Maybe introduce the relevant advisers?
Some details on the micro of the first maybe 10 units.
IE:
City 1 builds worker 1
Worker#1 improves food resources, then builds mines.
City 1 build warriors send them off in opposite directions to scout. At pop 3-4 city 1 builds settler 1, worker 1 chops (1-2 riverside grassland forests) to speed up settler.
Settler 1 goes to a) strategic resource? for rush b) blocking location? for REX c) just founds city near some resources?
Warriors scouting protect settler 1 path. City 2 founded, build granary.
City 1 queue worker, warrior, settler
City 1 Start Settler 2 and Chop (1-2 forests, give a priority system for chopping, maybe introduce a whip here).
And on and on. Intersperse when techs should be coming available and it should give a script that builds confidence.

It takes a long time to crash the economy on Noble, so you will have a lot of time to expand and a lot to fill in between monarchy and construction. I'd probably take them to alphabet and/or currency to introduce building research or wealth instead of building every building in every city. This will also give them some tools to use when/if they move up and the economy crashes faster. Its a pain to be in strike and not have one of these infinite build items available.

The monarchy path seems to line up with cottage spam, so probably take tech down a defensive path and cover how to hold the AI at bay. No diplomacy needed, just hard counters and enough forces in border cities.

An A/B type path might be discussed around here to indicate an option for players to experiment with they are either a) turtling and going down cottage enhancing techs or b) getting siege, whipping an army of x/y, and taking some non protective land.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I will second that slavery should be introduced with chopping, since they come early and are powerful. Don't talk about optimal whipping and whatnot. Just recommend when to switch to slavery and when to do the first whip of the game and first whip in each city.

I'll admit that this one has me worried a bit. Maybe I'm over thinking it, but describing whipping simply strikes me as non trivial. I suppose if we illustrate the whip as an alternative to chopping to get the first border pop, cover the granary, and use it to train the catapults, that's enough to plant the seed.

 

[hoLLo]

I think I'm getting the right idea here but just to make sure, this thread is to help beginners simplify their opening play to get a grasp on bigger ideas that they can master as they move up? Here are some thoughts i'll share, as it's been a while since I played around that level I still make mistakes akin to that level every now and then.

Here's a list of ideas that I think are generic to all openings and things that I still sometimes forget to do and pay for in the end:

Scouting: Scouting, Scouting, Scouting. Scouting. You absolutely need to know all the terain around you, and your entire continent if you can manage it. Know where each capital is and scout around it as best you can. Let's say you research BW and see that you have copper, if you scouted properly you'll be able to pick which neighbour doesn't have it and head his/her way. Otherwise you're making decisions in the dark. After I've built a worker I usually put out a warrior or scout to conquer the darkness. I have horrible luck with my first warrior, it seems the game has a secret -50% combat odds for that first warrior.

Worker techs: My first techs are always worker techs because unless I start with fishing on the coast I almost always build a worker first. AH, Agri, Mining/BW, Pottery, Wheel, Hunting. Scouting helps immensly here, you can see which worker techs are needed first and prioritize them.

Workers: I used to forget to build workers. I'd build one, then another a little later, then another a little later, then try to build an empire on the backs of three workers. I've heard different benchmarks but I think at the absolute least you need 1 for every city. Or 1.5. After my capital builds it's first settler, it almost always builds a new worker right after to keep the 1:1 ratio. Until you play a game and actually use this benchmark you'll never see the difference. And it's huge.

Luxuries: I had to go back to a few games of Civ3 to remember how important luxuries are, especially the variety you can hook up pre-calendar. I usually prioritize settling early luxuries that can be hooked up right away. Fur/Ivory/Gold/Silver/Gems. If they are there of course. The reason for this is:

Slavery: IMO the most powerful civic in the game. If you're like me you may have been to a couple threads with really long-winded explanations of all the exact ways to maximize this civic. Don't be discouraged by all that, just try it out until you get the hang of it. You will not be sorry. It's massive. Getting back to the previous entry on the list : the more luxuries you have, the more whipping you can do. I like to whip things that have a time sensative investment. By that I mean things that give greater returns the earlier you have them. Workers/Settlers/Granaries/Culture buildings. And any building that gets a production bonus due to traits or resources. I also love whipping courthouses. With these things it really matters to have them earlier, even if only by a few turns. Also having slavery can save you in a pinch when the AI surprises you and you need an archer/spear/axe.

Chopping: It comes with the same tech as Slavery, which tells me BW is the most powerful tech in the game. Chopping trees is very helpful for getting a fast start. Getting a fast start is essential to winning. I like to chop my 2nd/3rd workers after I've built a settler. I like to chop things that have a time sensative investment. By that I mean things that give greater returns the earlier you have them. Workers/Settlers/Granaries/Culture buildings. And any building that gets a production bonus due to traits or resources. I also love chopping courthouses. With these things it really matters to have them earlier, even if only by a few turns.

War: The first war you'll face is with the barbarians. If you are defending against barbs with warriors you've done something wrong. See if you have horses or copper, and if you don't, research archery, then build archers. For conquest, learn how to get to Iron Working or Construction if you want to conquer land. You can attack with axemen but the window is short-lived. If you want to do some conquering, build swords and catapults and practice with that until you can make it work. Once you've got the hang of that...

Recovering: Learn how to recover from a war. I suggest using these forums a lot.

Civfanatics Forums: If you're reading this you're already here, so no worries.