Yeah that's true, Western Europe has already lots of titles and the rest is kind of empty. I'll search about it and post what I find here later.
RFCE 2.0 Titles
- Thread starter Saturninus
- Start date
Yeah that's true, Western Europe has already lots of titles and the rest is kind of empty. I'll search about it and post what I find here later.
The Flame8
Prince
My one title request if that if the RFCE++ Holy Roman Empire system isn't implemented their should be a title for the most religious and strongest Civ in that area.
Digging up Eastern Europe history I could make this list (Needed provinces appear on the right side of a title. Needed titles for bigger ones appear under and tabbed):
A complete list with only the small titles follows:
Prince of Polotsk: Polotsk
Prince of Smolensk: Smolensk
Prince of Turov-Pinsk?: Brest?
Prince of Galicia: Galicia
Prince of Volhynia?: Volhynia
Prince of Minsk: Minsk
Prince of Pereyaslavl: Pereyaslavl
Prince of Rostov: Rostov
Prince of Beloozero?: Vologda
Prince of Suzdal-Nizhny Novgorod?: Nizhny Novgorod
Prince of Murom-Ryazan: Murom
Prince of Chernigov: Chernigov
Prince of Tmutarakan: Crimea
Duke of Estonia: Estonia
Duke of Livonia: Livonia
Duke of Lithuania: Lithuania
Prince of Kiev*: Kiev, Podolia
Prince of Moldavia: Moldova
Grand Prince of Moscow: Moscow
*I'm not quite sure of this. Duke seems to be the translation to english and romanized languages, Prince would be a translation from their perspective. Grand Prince appears only after Vladimir the Great, the one who christianized the Rus'. Before him Princes of Kiev and of Rus' are mentioned, but it seems as the exact title wasn't so important to them.
The thing is, after some time it seems Grand Prince was a ruler, who chose which titles would fall to others (normally to their sons). So Prince was the ruler of a vassal city of the Grand Prince. When they broke free (i.e. Galicia-Volhynia and Muscovy), they styled themselves Grand Princes, so this made me think that's indeed the situation: Prince for vassal ruler, Grand Prince for sovereign Ruler.
I divided the Prince of Kiev from Grand Prince of Kiev because of this, maybe we could put only Grand Prince of Kiev: Kiev, Podolia.
? These are doubts that remained. I'm not the best in Eastern European geography, and with the majority of historical maps in cyrillic, I can't even start to guess what's written (I may not know anything besides Portuguese and English, but with the same alphabet is easy to figure out Polish, Lithuanian and German locations, not the case with Ukraine, Belarus and Russia). Firstly I tried to use the city name maps of RFCE to help me, but then I remembered that Eastern Europe is not updated, so less information for me. If anyone can correct me on this, please tell me.
For Podolia, Sloboda, Donets, Karelia, Zaporizhia and Kuban I couldn't find important titles. Maybe there was a city here and there with such a title, but as I said the cyrillic halted my work.
After we have a working Titles advisor we can think of translating the titles based on religion. For me it seemed quite accurate to give Prince titles for Orthodox and Pagan rulers of Rus' and the surrounding areas, and Duke titles for Catholics and Protestants.
I also changed the perspective of the Grand Duke of Lithuania from Saturninus's for historical reasons: Mindaugas got the title King of Lithuania after the conquests of Polotsk and some southern regions. This was a Catholic title. Grand Duke seems exactly as the Grand Prince from the east, as Lithuania was controlled by elder dukes (princes), and Mindaugas unified them all under his Grand Dukedom (or Grand Princedom). So Grand Duke would be the same as King (hopefully separated by religion later), and only after these conquests.
Spoiler :
Prince of Polotsk: Polotsk
Prince of Smolensk: Smolensk
Prince of Turov-Pinsk?: Brest?
Prince of Galicia: Galicia
Prince of Volhynia?: Volhynia
Prince of Minsk: Minsk
Prince of Pereyaslavl: Pereyaslavl
Prince of Rostov: Rostov
Prince of Beloozero?: Vologda
Prince of Suzdal-Nizhny Novgorod?: Nizhny Novgorod
Prince of Murom-Ryazan: Murom
Prince of Chernigov: Chernigov
Prince of Tmutarakan: Crimea
Duke of Estonia: Estonia
Duke of Livonia: Livonia
Duke of Lithuania: Lithuania
Prince of Kiev*: Kiev, Podolia
Prince of Moldavia: Moldova
Grand Prince of Moscow: Moscow
*I'm not quite sure of this. Duke seems to be the translation to english and romanized languages, Prince would be a translation from their perspective. Grand Prince appears only after Vladimir the Great, the one who christianized the Rus'. Before him Princes of Kiev and of Rus' are mentioned, but it seems as the exact title wasn't so important to them.
The thing is, after some time it seems Grand Prince was a ruler, who chose which titles would fall to others (normally to their sons). So Prince was the ruler of a vassal city of the Grand Prince. When they broke free (i.e. Galicia-Volhynia and Muscovy), they styled themselves Grand Princes, so this made me think that's indeed the situation: Prince for vassal ruler, Grand Prince for sovereign Ruler.
I divided the Prince of Kiev from Grand Prince of Kiev because of this, maybe we could put only Grand Prince of Kiev: Kiev, Podolia.
? These are doubts that remained. I'm not the best in Eastern European geography, and with the majority of historical maps in cyrillic, I can't even start to guess what's written (I may not know anything besides Portuguese and English, but with the same alphabet is easy to figure out Polish, Lithuanian and German locations, not the case with Ukraine, Belarus and Russia). Firstly I tried to use the city name maps of RFCE to help me, but then I remembered that Eastern Europe is not updated, so less information for me. If anyone can correct me on this, please tell me.
For Podolia, Sloboda, Donets, Karelia, Zaporizhia and Kuban I couldn't find important titles. Maybe there was a city here and there with such a title, but as I said the cyrillic halted my work.
After we have a working Titles advisor we can think of translating the titles based on religion. For me it seemed quite accurate to give Prince titles for Orthodox and Pagan rulers of Rus' and the surrounding areas, and Duke titles for Catholics and Protestants.
I also changed the perspective of the Grand Duke of Lithuania from Saturninus's for historical reasons: Mindaugas got the title King of Lithuania after the conquests of Polotsk and some southern regions. This was a Catholic title. Grand Duke seems exactly as the Grand Prince from the east, as Lithuania was controlled by elder dukes (princes), and Mindaugas unified them all under his Grand Dukedom (or Grand Princedom). So Grand Duke would be the same as King (hopefully separated by religion later), and only after these conquests.
Tsar of Serbs and Greeks requires:
Prince of Serbia
Prince of Epirus
Prince of (Greek provinces up to Morea, no Achaea)
I'm not sure of the names for the greek provinces but create a seperate title for each except for the Acahea region.
Prince of Serbia
Prince of Epirus
Prince of (Greek provinces up to Morea, no Achaea)
I'm not sure of the names for the greek provinces but create a seperate title for each except for the Acahea region.
AbsintheRed
Deity
I try to set up the screen this weekend
Sounds good
I'm pretty curious what you can come up with
Searching for Serbian history another situation that seems interesting to be added later is the evolution of Titles. Serbia evolved from a Principality into a Grand Principality, then into a Kingdom, then into an Empire. Of course not all of them would be evolutions (just gatherings of smaller provinces), but some could be (i.e. Principality to Grand Principality). We could have this on Kievan Rus' too (Prince of Kiev to Grand Prince of Kiev) and in other locations as well.
For Serbia (as will be added in RFCE 2.0 and IMO should be added still on the evolving 1.0) here comes what I found (thx for the direction Alpav):
* Firstly the name: Tsar (Emperor) of Serbs, Tsar (Emperor) of Serbs and Greeks, Tsar (Emperor) of Serbs and Romans. If we maintain a single name for the title, I would put Tsar of Serbs and Greeks, but if we can make it religion dependent, we could have Tsar of Serbs and Romans for Orthodox and Emperor of Serbs and Greeks for Catholic
** Serbia was a master of failing at conquering the major cities of the RFCE provinces. Dalmatia was conquered, but not Ragusa, Thessaly but not Athens and Thessaloniki but not Thessalonika. That's why I left these 3 provinces out. Thessaly is different: It seems the region they got is not the entire Thessaly province of RFCE. Athens is out of it, and it remained the Duchy of Athens after Serb conquests. Thessalonika and Ragusa were targets but could defend themselves from Serbia throughout their campaigns. When Kingdom Ragusa stood, when Empire Thessalonika stood.
*** This is another title that could have evolving names. Prince of Arbanon to King of Albania. If religion-oriented: Prince of Arbanon (Catholic) and Archon (or Lord) of Arbanon (Orthodox).
I don't want to get into this now, as we have a lot of work to do before, so for the smaller titles I found we can remain with Saturninus list.
For Serbia (as will be added in RFCE 2.0 and IMO should be added still on the evolving 1.0) here comes what I found (thx for the direction Alpav):
Spoiler :
* Firstly the name: Tsar (Emperor) of Serbs, Tsar (Emperor) of Serbs and Greeks, Tsar (Emperor) of Serbs and Romans. If we maintain a single name for the title, I would put Tsar of Serbs and Greeks, but if we can make it religion dependent, we could have Tsar of Serbs and Romans for Orthodox and Emperor of Serbs and Greeks for Catholic
** Serbia was a master of failing at conquering the major cities of the RFCE provinces. Dalmatia was conquered, but not Ragusa, Thessaly but not Athens and Thessaloniki but not Thessalonika. That's why I left these 3 provinces out. Thessaly is different: It seems the region they got is not the entire Thessaly province of RFCE. Athens is out of it, and it remained the Duchy of Athens after Serb conquests. Thessalonika and Ragusa were targets but could defend themselves from Serbia throughout their campaigns. When Kingdom Ragusa stood, when Empire Thessalonika stood.
*** This is another title that could have evolving names. Prince of Arbanon to King of Albania. If religion-oriented: Prince of Arbanon (Catholic) and Archon (or Lord) of Arbanon (Orthodox).
I don't want to get into this now, as we have a lot of work to do before, so for the smaller titles I found we can remain with Saturninus list.
It should only be Tsar of Serbs and Greeks becuase that was the only "empire" title Serbia received which was under Stefan Uros IV Dusan. Though he failed to conquer those specific cities, all of the territory around it was conquered which warrants the title and all the provinces, in my opinion. If Serbia controls Macedonia, it should be Zupan of Ras.
Dumanios
MLG
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2008
- Messages
- 4,887
Speaking of titles:
Protector of the Holy Sepulchre (Requires you to be Christian and hold Jerusalem.) (Effect: All faith gain is doubled)
Emperor of Rome (Requires you to hold Constantinople as well as three other cities in Thrace, Achaea, or Anatolia) (Effects: Inability to collapse as long as Constantinople is controlled)
New Byzantine Unique Power: Power of Byzantine Diplomacy (+1
per city in all cities)
Protector of the Holy Sepulchre (Requires you to be Christian and hold Jerusalem.) (Effect: All faith gain is doubled)
Emperor of Rome (Requires you to hold Constantinople as well as three other cities in Thrace, Achaea, or Anatolia) (Effects: Inability to collapse as long as Constantinople is controlled)
New Byzantine Unique Power: Power of Byzantine Diplomacy (+1
per city in all cities)Spoiler :
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
That's half the effect of the minor component of the Spanish UP.New Byzantine Unique Power: Power of Byzantine Diplomacy (+1
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