@Virdrago: Also a good list. I think something we need to work out is whether "another continent" means Europe or just things outside of what might be called "Mongolia," in a historical-ish sense. I favor the latter, since it gives us many more options, and since (with the exception of the invasions of Japan and Indonesia) oceans as we think of them haven't really been a big deal for the Mongols.
I have a bunch of comments on your list. Let me know what you think?
1- non-coastal cities in the continent:
Karakoto - one of the first cities taken by Genghis, named after the Kara-Kitai?
This city's name in Mongol literally means "Black City," sharing the "Khar" root found in Kharkhorum. I've never heard of it, but I'm not the last word on this sort of thing.
Urumchi - one of the first cities captured, and the area is part of the Mongol heartland.
Oh boy. The Uyghurs, Kyrgyz, and Chinese would dispute you on that one
However, it *is* right next door to today's Mongolian lands, and is the capital of the "autonomous region" of a quasi-nomadic people that used to have the same writing system and religion as the Mongols. Also, I put Lhasa on my list, which is bound to infuriate someone in China, so there's no good reason not to use Urumqi too! However, I would put this in List 3, since it's not strictly "Mongol," in my personal view.
Khanbalyk - Beijing. Also called Dadu by the Mongols. Too confusing?
Again, Dadu is the Chinese name. Not confusing, just linguistically wrong, in my pedantic view
Kaifeng - captured by the Jurchen (related to the Mongols), before Mongolia took over. In China, so it could be a stretch.
Technically Lhasa and Urumqi are in "China" too, but Kaifeng is definitely in "China Proper," so maybe out.
Kashgar - part of the Silk Road. Mongol power is noted for their control of the Silk Road.
Hm, I like it! Kashgar has been important for the history of Inner Asia's nomadic peoples for as long as its existed (2000 years or so?), and no other Civ founds it (my logic for Lhasa, again), so why not?
Tashkent - destroyed by the Mongols, rebuilt by the Timurids. Silk Road again.
Bokhara - Mongols destroyed it, Timurids rebuilt it, part of Silk Road. See Tashkent.
I put Samarkand in my list, so there's no good reason not to include Tashkent or Bokhara, using the rationale that I used before. I would prefer to keep the number of cities of not strictly Mongolian origin to a minimum though, and was hoping to use Samarkand as simply a representative of most of "Turkic" Central Asia. Also, if I remember right, Samarkand crops up as an independent city in RFC as is, so it would be nice to see it again in some way.
Tabriz - In northern Iran, but we should have enough Persian and Arab names?
Kabul - In Afghanistan. Could be Arab or Persian, but Persian name would be Kabura.
Herat - Afghanistan again. Aria in Persian, Artacoana to Alexander the Great.
Nishapur - razed by the Mongols, almost two million killed. May be better as Arab or Persian city.
Kirman - important Islamic cultural centre, so may be better for Arabia/Persia.
Basra - probably better as an Arab city. Was under Mongol control for over 100 years.
Maragha - in northwest Iran. Used as a base to attack Anatolia and the Levant.
Balkh - Afghan city. Sacked by Genghis, then Tamerlane later. Ancient Bactra.
I think what you say about these cities being more Persian/Arabic/Islamic/etc is more correct. The Mongols who conquered and settled in these places, much like Khubilai Khan and his Yuen Dynasty in China, sorta merged with the local populous, losing their "Mongol nature," as big daddy Chinggis would have said
Shangtu - Kublai relocated his capital from Karakorum to here before moving to Khanbalyk (Beijing).
Good point, but
Shangtu/Xanadu is Khubilai's summer palace just outside of what is today Beijing. I'm not sure it warrants being a city on its own.
Urga - original name of Ulaanbataar, Mongolia's modern capital. Renamed Ulaanbataar upon independence.
You raise a good point here, about cities whose names flip around through history. I would argue in favor of Ulaanbaatar since the city, in my view, was a good deal more important under that name than the other, both for the Mongols and Mongolia's relations with the wider world (being the seat of Communist power in Mongolia, and the name most people are more likely to have heard of).
Tatung - Northern China, north of Beijing. Another Jurchen city taken by the Mongols. Also called Datong.
Based on my 2minutes in Wikipedia
lol
, I think the city may have been founded by the Chinese, but also based on an account by a traveler in the region in the 1910s that I read a few months ago (I know, I'm being snooty), the city was regarded as something like the last outpost of Chinese culture on the way to Mongolia. ./shrug
Sayram - Another Silk Road city. Today in Kazakhstan.
Chimkent - Caravanserai founded to protect Sayram. Genghis destroyed it, has been rebuilt.
I had never heard of these until now, but HOLY CRAP is Saryam old. Thanks for pointing this out, it's neat
Again, for using these, it'll ultimately be a judgment call about how many not-strictly-"Mongol" cities we (and by we I mean Rhye and Rhye alone, in the end) want to use.
Hangchow - Chinese capital of the Southern Song until it fell to the Mongols. May have been renamed Lin'an?
Chunking - Major city in Central China when it fell.
Kanchou - One of the last Chinese cities to fall. Modern Ganzhou (not Guanzhou).
Judgment call: Too Chinese
4- coastal cities in another continent. Caucasian cities built on the Caspian are included here:
Serai - founded by Mongols in Russia. Supposedly was the capital of the Golden Horde for a while. Better than being named Old Serai like in the main game (see Berke Serai).
Berke Serai - founded by the Golden Horde to be closer to their Russian tributaries. Is thought to have been built in the Volga Delta, near the original Serai, by the Caspian (near Astrakhan). "Berke" is "New" in Mongolian (New Serai, like New Orleans and New York).
Hm. In no version of Mongolian that I've studied have I ever seen "berke" meaning "new." In my experience, it's always been "shine" "shin" "shinu" or something similar.
Wikipedia says Berke was the name of a Khan in the Horde. Again though, Wikipedia and I are not the final word on this, so we could easily be wrong
Anyway, I wondered about using Sarai too. I don't remember why I decided not to include it, but now I'm thinking it should definitely be included in list three after all. Thanks for pointing it out
Derbent - In Caucasian Russia. Flourished under Mongol rule.
Holy crap, this one's super old too! Much like Kashgar, Urumqi, Lhasa, Samarkand, etc., it's not founded by any of the other Civs in the game, but unlike those others, I find it difficult to justify as a "Mongol" city. Kashgar, Samarkand, and Urumqi are centers for formerly kinda-nomadic Central Asian-ish peoples, and Lhasa's been connected to the Mongols for centuries, if not more, but Derbent goes so far back and has changed hands so many times I'd have a tough time saying it deserves to be Mongol and Mongol only. Still an interesting suggestion though.
Conclusions!: The most important things (IMHO) that you brought up are Kashgar (founded before
76BC) and Sarai (founded in the mid-
1240s). I would put both of these in list 3, since they're not strictly in "Mongolia," as I alone view it, and they aren't really near large bodies of water (Astrakhan is almost on the Caspian, and Sarai is about 120km farther inland, with New/Berke Sarai even farther away).
Also, Urumqi, Taskhent, and Bokhara, might be candidates for inclusion, but with them, as with Kashgar, Lhasa, and Samarqand, it'll be a judgment call on Rhye's part for how "Mongol" they are. I would advocate in favor of including them on the Mongols' List III since they have all been important for Central Asia's nomadic peoples, in the current version of RFC (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong?) no other Civ really founds them, and they have all cropped up as important in Mongolian history at various points, but especially (with the exception of Urumqi) during the Empire.
The competitors for these cities would be Russia and Persia (Tashkent, Bokhara, and Samarqand), and China (Lhasa, Urumqi, and Kashgar). My gut says these cities have been "historically" (whatever that means) more a part of the Uzbek, Tibetan, Uyghur, Kara-Khitan, and various other kinda-indigenous but-still-related nomad-type peoples in Inner Asia, rather than part of the "Civilizations" of Persia, Russia, and China, despite being under the control of those latter three at various points in history (many being important and protracted).
Anyway, I'll revise my list, incorporating your suggestions (thanks again!), and make a separate post for it later.
