Rhye's and Fall RAND: Preview #2

[blizzrd]

Final Note: Unless someone else wants to toss in more suggestions, I’m gonna stick a fork in this list and call it done

Good job though, very thorough.

 

[Al-Iskander]

Thanks Bliz If you liked that one, then you'll *love* the sequel!

The below are my Russia Lists variations, based on Lone Wolf’s lists on page one, Virdrago’s suggestion on page 3, and my own thoughts. Most of my changes involved including “Siberian” cities as “on another continent,” for the purposes of Lists III and IV, since in our world they are technically in Asia. Also, in RFC, one of Russia’s UHVs is to colonize “Siberia,” which is in “Asia,” which is treated as a separate continent in RFC, as in the English UHV, for example.

Also, I removed Astrakhan from Lone Wolf’s list, as it was fairly clearly founded by a non-Russian entity, and today has strong connections to the “Mongol” world through its Kalmyk population.

I admit that I’m not at all Russian in my ancestry, and open to all of the criticisms and shortcomings that come with that. However, I did study a bit of Russian history in graduate school too, I speak and read Russian passably well, and I’ve also lived there (Moscow and Ulan-Ude). There I go again with my unverifiable claims of my qualifications

Regarding the inclusion of Kiev, putting that in would get us embroiled in the Ukrainian-Russian (or Little Russian vs. Great Russian) nationalist debate, which just gives me a headache. I know “Rus” started in Kiev and that in RFC Russia spawns around the time of Kievan Rus. However, RFC Russia’s capital is Moscow (not Kiev), so there’s already precedent within the mod to start with Moscow instead of anything else. Also, much of “Russia’s” glory days come well after Kievan Rus. Lastly, the “Rus” who founded the Kievan Dynasty were technically Viking-type peoples. I think we can therefore weasel our way out of including Kiev in RFC RAND.

The cities on List II that are now in Ukraine, however, were technically sorta founded by the “Russian” state, and their inclusion in Ukraine today can, in RFC terms, be accounted for as becoming “independents” I kept them in for those reasons.

Also, all dates below are AD and spelling should be in line with the CityNameManager file (Livorno FTW). The cities are also in their order of foundation (with the exceptions of Moscow and St. Petersburg), as requested by Rhye.

List I – Non-Coastal Home Continent
1. Moskva –1147, but should still be the landlocked capital, due to its status as such in RFC
2. Rostov – 862 or so
3. Smolensk – 863 or so
4. Pskov – 903 or so
5. Novgorod – 950s or so
6. Jaroslavl – 1010 or so
7. Kursk – 1032 or so
8. Vladimir – 1108 or so
9. Nizhnij Novgorod – 1221
10. Tula – 1300s
--Past the 10 City Limit--
11. Voronezh – 1585
12. Samara - 1586
13. Volgograd - 1589
14. Perm - 1647
15. Izhevsk – 1760

List II – Coastal Home Continent
1. Sankt Peterburg (Should be the capital if Russia spawns on the coast. Also, it doesn’t seem right to have it built after Jalta.) – 1703
2. Jalta – 1150 or so (this would be Yalta, but spelled under the transliteration system RFC uses, in case anyone's confused)
3. Arkhangelsk – 1584
4. Sevastopol – 1783
5. Rostov-na-Donu – 1794
6. Odessa – 1794
7. Novorossijsk (Black Sea) – 1838
8. Sochi – 1864
9. Murmansk - 1916

List III – Non-Coastal Other Continent (Including Siberia here)
1. Tobolsk – 1585
2. Tjumen – 1586
3. Tomsk – 1604
4. Krasnojarsk – 1628
5. Jakutsk – 1632
6. Irkutsk – 1652
7. Krasnojarsk – 1628
8. Omsk – 1716
9. Ekaterinburg (just barely on the eastern side of the Urals) – 1723
10. Barnaul – 1730
--Past the 10 City Limit--
11. Cheljabinsk -1763
12. Khabarovsk – 1858
13. Novosibirsk – 1893
14. Kemerovo – 1918

List IV – Coastal Other Continent (Including Siberia here)
1. Petropavlovsk – Kamchatskij – 1740
2. Pavlovskaja Gavan' - 1792
3. Voskresenskaja (change to Seward if captured by USA) – 1793
4. Konstantinovsky – 1793
5. Slavorossija – 1796
6. Port Chichagov – around 1800 (?)
7. Novo-Arkhangelsk – 1804
8. Krepost' Ross (see Wikipedia. Here I intentionally deviated from the RFC official spelling, since it looks like both Rhye and Lone Wolf are right Krepost’ does just mean Fort, and Ross can be a short form of Rossiya, the Russian name for Russia. It might be renamed appropriately on capture by anyone.) – 1812
9. Vladivostok (any way to guarantee that it be founded on an east coast? If not, it should be Vladisever, Vladiyug, or Vladizapad… or not .) – 1860
10. Magadan – 1930s

Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms of my capitalist-imperialist revisions of the history of the Motherland? I'd especially like commentary on which cities on Lists I and III can be dropped, since there are too many on each.

 

[blizzrd]

The Russian bases in Antarctica should I think be included in Category III. There are a few to choose from.

 

[Úmarth]

Here's a Roman one (Italians, feel free to rip me to pieces )

I've only included cities founded or refounded by the Romans, and have used Italian cities for lists 1 and 2 and others for 3 and 4. The former means a lot of notable cities aren't included, though.

1- for non-coastal cities in the continent
Roma
Antium (?)
Beneventum (286 BCE)
Modena (183 BCE)
Parma (183 BCE)
Pompeii (80 BCE)
Faesulae (~80 BCE)
Capua (I think Caesar founded a veterans' colony here?)
Augusta Taurinorum (28 BCE)
Augusta Praetoria Salassorum (24 BCE)

2- for coastal cities in the continent
Ostia Antica (7th century BCE)
Terracina (329 BCE)
Tarentum (122 BCE)

3- for non-coastal cities in another continent
Italica (206 BCE)
Metellinum (80 BCE)
Corinthiensis (44 BCE)
Lugdunum (43 BCE)
Emerita Augusta (25 BCE)
Bracara Augusta (20 BCE)
Augusta Treverorum (16 BCE)
Augusta Rauracorum (15 BCE)
Augusta Vindelicorum (15 BCE)
Augusta Suessionum (Augustus)
Londinium (50 CE)
Camulodunom (43 CE)
Eboracum (71 CE)

4- for coastal cities in another continent
Dyrrachium (229 BCE)
Colonia Iunonia/Carthago (122 BCE)
Narbo Martius (118 BCE)
Tarraco (?)
Hippo Regius (?)
Thapsus (46 BCE)
Patras (Augustus)
Nova Roma/Constantinopolis (330 CE)

 

[dionysos2048]

^ What about Mediolanum?

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

and Brundisium? Messana is also an option as well although I'm not sure if thats the proper Roman name or is actually a Greek colony like Cumae and Neapolis.

 

[Úmarth]

Those are all pre-Roman cities which were conquered. Although perhaps I've been too strict in that respect.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

You can't argue with the fact that they're part of the Roman heartland, though(Italia being the true Roman heartland). I think that's a good enough reason to include them. You also have to remember that Rome certainly doesn't conquer them in RFC, it settles them.

 

[Barak]

In some ways these Roman cities fall into the same category as New York, Boston and PHiladelphia as cities that were founded by other nations, but rose to prominance and importance with Rome.

 

[dionysos2048]

All lists are bound to be criticized, so I hope you don't take it personally, however, I also think that Longdonum Lugdunum and Constantinopolis should be in the English (London), French (Lyon) and Turkish (Istanbul) lists.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

Here's categories 1+2 of the Indian city list.

Category One

1.Delhi(2000 B.C.)(Capital)
2.Lahore(2000 B.C.)(in pakistan)
3.Varanasi(1000 B.C.)
4.Nagpur(700 B.C.)(Note:Line over the a!)
5.Takshashila(518 B.C.)
6.Patna(490 B.C.)
7.Ujjaini(400 B.C.)
8.Agra(150 A.D. or 1504 A.D.)
9.Bengaluru(500 A.D.)
10.Dhaka(600 A.D.)
11.Raipur(800 A.D.)
12.Bhopal(1000 A.D.)
13.Lakhnau(1350 A.D.?)
14.Indore(Mughal Times)
15.Amritsr(1574 A.D.)
16.Hyderabad(1591 A.D.)
17.Jaipur(1727)


Category Two

1.Chittagong(ancient times)
2.Thiruvananthapuram(1000 B.C.)
3.Visakhapatnam(500 B.C.)
4.Orugallu(300 B.C.)
5.Mumbai(250 B.C.)
6.Govapuri(200 B.C.)
7.Cochin(?)
8.Kolkatta(0 A.D.)
9.Tanjapuri(0 A.D.)
10.Chennai(0 A.D.)
11.Karachi(712 A.D.?)(in pakistan)
12.Surat(1400's)
13.Berhampur(?)
14.Kakinada(?)
15.Pitikapuram(?)

Constructive Criticism is welcome. This is more like a rough draft than an actual list and any additional information is more than welcome.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

I think Hyderabad should be on that list, it has the fifth largest metropolitan area in India. Though it was founded in 1591, so it might be why you didn't include it.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

I think Hyderabad should be on that list, it has the fifth largest metropolitan area in India. Though it was founded in 1591, so it might be why you didn't include it.

It's in there(#15).

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Ooh...

 

[say1988]

Re Kiev:
It is a hugely important city, it would be a great shame to not include it.
While it is not "Russian" per se, it was a major city of the Russian Empire and Soviet Union and no other civ has a great claim to it. So even ignoring the history of the Kievan Rus, the Russians should have it.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Kiev is in Viking list, as Vikings founded that city.

 

[dionysos2048]

I agree Kiev should be Russian

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Removed Kiev/Kjönugård from Viking list.

 

[sgrig]

List II – Coastal Home Continent
1. Sankt Peterburg (Should be the capital if Russia spawns on the coast. Also, it doesn’t seem right to have it built after Jalta.) – 1703
2. Jalta – 1150 or so (this would be Yalta, but spelled under the transliteration system RFC uses, in case anyone's confused)
3. Arkhangelsk – 1584

A good list, but I don't think Yalta should be on the list in such a prominent position, because it has never been Russian until after the Russian-Ottoman wars of late 18th century. If anything, it should be part of the colonial Byzantine city list (if Byzantines make it as a major civ in RFC RAND!). After that it's main importance was as a summer resort, so it would be strange to see it in Civ as as a powerhouse city (coming so high up in the list)

Regarding Kiev, I still think it should be included in the Russian city list, probably after Moscow. Since the 17th century it has been a very important part of any Russian "empire", and originally much of Russia's culture stemmed from Kiev. It's role is hard to underestimate.

 

[sgrig]

List IV – Coastal Other Continent (Including Siberia here)
1. Petropavlovsk – Kamchatskij – 1740
2. Pavlovskaja Gavan' - 1792

Oh yes, and add Okhotsk to the top of the list - it was the first Russian east coast settlement in Siberia. The first camp was built in 1643.