Rhye's and Fall RAND: Preview #2

[SadoMacho]

kbk, you were Dutch, weren't you?
If you are, what do you think about my Dutch list, would you add some changes?

 

[Wessel V1]

Delftzijl should be Delfzijl

 

[Churchill's Hat]

So here are some American ones that I can come up with off the top of my head. I chose them for historical importance, population, and I additionally tried to be geographically diverse.

I am including the earliest date that these areas could be considered a settlement. Many were officially incorporated much later. In the case of indigenous populations, I present the date when the city or area received its first permanent European or American settlement. These dates I obtained from Wikipedia, so if you can back them up with a real source, I have no objections to changing them.

Additionally, some may need to be filtered and claimed by other countries.

*means initially founded by England
**means initially founded by France
***means initially founded by Spain or Mexico
****means initially founded by the Netherlands


1 noncoastal in initial continent:
Detroit ca 1701*
Pittsburgh ca 1758*
Chicago ca 1770*
Cincinnati ca 1788
Buffalo ca 1789
Cleveland ca 1796
Atlanta ca 1837
Dallas ca 1841
Salt Lake City ca 1847
Denver ca 1858
Phoenix ca 1881
Las Vegas ca 1905

2 coastal on initial continent:
Washington ca 1790 (capitol)
New York City ca 1624**** (also potentially an English settlement)
Boston ca 1630*
Philadelphia ca 1681*
New Orleans ca 1718** (potentially Spanish as well)
San Diego ca 1769***
Los Angeles ca 1771***
San Francisco ca 1776***
Miami ca 1825
Houston ca 1837
Seattle ca 1851



3 non-coastal cities in another continent:
Juneau (alaska) 1881
I have nothing... I can easily expand the initial continental cities by another 5-10 if people would like.

4 coastal cities in another continent:
These are drawn for current and past American territories, as well as Hawaii and Alaska:
San Juan (Puerto Rico): ca 1501
Havana (Cuba) ca 1515
Manila (Philippines) ca 1574***
Charlotte Amalie (U.S. Virgin Islands): ca 1657**** (Saint Thomas is the name of the island, and perhaps a better name)
Guam ca 1668***
American Samoa: ca 1830s
Honolulu: ca 1898 (Hawaii was annexed as a territory in 1898, although was arguably influenced/claimed by America earlier).
Anchorage: ca 1914



Obviously some will appear on other lists, especially cities that were initially colonies of other civilizations. I would only argue that New York City, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, and Las Angeles should be exclusive to the US. Philadelphia and Boston have a lot of history as an English colony, but also are also extremely important cities in the American revolution and after.

The coast is about an hour's drive from Philly and Washington isn't on the coast either, and they should probably be on the other list. You could move Cleveland to the other list, as it is on Lake Erie, or you could add Jacksonville, Oakland, and/or Virginia Beach. Also, Philadelphia should appear before every city barring New York and Washington, it's the fifth largest city in America, was the capital during the Revolution and is much more important than Boston.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Hitti-Litti, the Viking list looks more a modern Scandinavian list.
It should be consistent with the civ4 one and with the RFC map: Nidaros, Kalmar, Uppsala...

All of those cities in my list are really old, though I'll add Nidaros and Kalmar now to the list. As there haven't been any great wars in Scandinavia, many cities have been alive since Viking times(for example Södertälje, Lund, Västerås, Uppsala, Oslo, København, Bergen, Århus etc.). So it actually is a Viking city list too.

Edit: Just found out that Nidaros = Trondheim. I'll use Nidaros as the name.

Edit2: Should I use Viking names instead of English names(Wexford=Veisafjǫrðr, Dublin=Dyflinn)?

 

[dionysos2048]

About Ceuta, Melilla and Tenerife, it's a tricky one, as they're not in Europe and therefore should they really be in list 2 or in 4? Tarragona, Cadiz and Vigo would fit in 2, although Tarragona was founded by Romans and Cadiz by Phoenicians. But then again, most Spanish, French, German, etc cities or important towns were founded by other civilizations, so...
Also Rosario isn't a coastal city, and should be in 3. Cartagena de Indias would fit in 4.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

Here's the American city list.

Category One

1.Pittsburgh(1758)
2.Kansas City(1714)
3.Chicago(1770's)
4.Nashville(1779)
5.Cincinnati(1788)
6.Buffalo(1789)
7.Cleveland(1796)
8.Indianapolis(1821)
9.Atlanta(1837)
10.Minneapolis?(1837)
11.Dallas(1841)
12.Salt Lake City(1847)
13.Denver(1858)
14.Omaha(1854)
15.Boise(1863)
16.Bismarck(1872)
17.Phoenix(1881)


Category Two

1.Washington(1790)(Capital)
2.New York City(1624)(huge part of U.S. culture, Britain already has most of 13 colonies in their names)
3.Philadelphia(1682)(Similar reasoning to New York and Los Angeles)
4.Los Angeles(1781)(same reasoning as above but with spain)
5.Jacksonville(1791)
6.Miami(1835)
7.Sacremento(1839)(Spain already has basically all of California)
8.Houston(1837)
9.Portland(1843)(not on ocean but close enough)
10.Oakland?(1848)
11.Seattle(1851)
12.Virginia Beach(1891)

Constructive criticism is welcome.

Note: Most of info obtained from wikipedia!

3+4 coming soon!

Edit: Good ideas kbk(from post 51)

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

Category Three

1.Juneau(1881)
2.Fairbanks(1903)
(Can fill this in with Alaskan towns if you wish)

Category Four

1.Saint Thomas(1657)
2.Guam(1668)
3.American Samoa(1830's)
4.Midway(1867)
5.Honolulu(1898)
6.Kailua-Kona
7.Nome(1903)
8.Anchorage(1914)
9.Unalaska(1933)
10.Saipan(1986)

Construtive Criticism is welcome.

P.S. your list helped alot kbk.

 

[dionysos2048]

Here are a few suggestions on the list Metal Alloy Man made. I also added accents:

1
Paris
Lyon
Orléans
Tours
Reims
Toulouse
Avignon
Chartres
Angers
Dijon
Poitiers
Amiens
Rennes
Besançon
Rouen

2
Marseille
Bordeaux
Le Havre
Nantes
Brest
Toulon
Nice
La Rochelle
Calais
Montpelier
Biarritz
Dunkerque

3
Québec
Trois-Rivières
Montréal
Bâton-Rouge
Fort Détroit
Fort Toulouse
Fort Niagara
Fort Dauphin
Ste-Marie
Saül

4
Saint-Louis
Nouvelle Orléans
Cayenne
Port Royal
Kourou
Fort-de-France
Pointe-à-Pitre
Port-au-Prince
Nouméa
Saint-Denis

I'm not sure about the order of 3 and 4 though.

EDIT: since coastal cities apparently can be up to 20km away from the sea, included Nantes and Montpelier back into the list.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

Saint Louis is a coastal city? I know it's on the mississipi but I thought coastal meant ocean coastal. Trois Rivieres is a great addition. About the coastal cities, I know some aren't coastal but they're very close to the coast and played a more prominent role in history. It doesn't really matter though. That's just my reasoning.

P.S. I'm going to start working on a German list soon!

 

[dionysos2048]

Oh, it's Sain-Louis in Sénégal, which was the first French colony and is one of the biggest Senegalese city, I did'nt think you were talking about the Mississipi one.

 

[kbk]

The coast is about an hour's drive from Philly and Washington isn't on the coast either, and they should probably be on the other list. You could move Cleveland to the other list, as it is on Lake Erie, or you could add Jacksonville, Oakland, and/or Virginia Beach. Also, Philadelphia should appear before every city barring New York and Washington, it's the fifth largest city in America, was the capital during the Revolution and is much more important than Boston.

By Rhye's request, the lists are ordered by founding date and not importance. He also set the precedent of cities being close to the coast being considered coastal. (After all, in RFC, Washington is a coastal city). Take a look at Metal Alloy Man's updated list.

I don't think cities on the Great Lakes should be considered coastal. We're talking about near the ocean when we talk about coastal.

@Metal Alloy Man:
I would rather see Saint Louis and Kansas City over some of the later cities in your list (no offense to Bismark and Boise). Saint Louis is a particularly important city as a gateway for colonization of the West.

Also, I still think we need to snag either Las Angeles or San Francisco from the Spanish. I would also really love to see Philadelphia or Boston taken from the English list too. These are quintessential American cities.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

@kbk:

Saint Louis is already on the french list as well as Fort Detroit. These were very important French colonies and there are plenty of other cities we can use on the list. I edited the list to include Kansas City, Los Angeles and Philadelphia. Los Angeles and New York are both icons of American culture so they should be included. Philadelphia was very instrumental in the revolution so it should be included as well.

@Rhye:

Do you mind removing Philadelphia from the English list and replacing it with something else (Suez or Nassau)? Could you also replace Los Angeles on the Spanish list with something else as well?
We need these cities for the American list.

Thanks

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

Here are the German city names.

Category One

1.Berlin(1157)(Capital)
2.Wien(200 B.C.)
3.Essen(700's)
4.Salzburg(700's)
5.Frankfurt(794)
6.Dortmund(880)
7.Stuttgart(950)
8.Prague(900's)
9.Warschau(1000's)
10.Breslau(1000's)
11.Leipzig(1015)
12.Pressburg(1000's)
13.Nurnburg(1050)(Note:Two dots over the u!)
14.Dusseldorf(1135)(Note:Two dots over the u!)
15.Munchen(1158)(Note:Two dots over the u!)
16.Hannover(1200's)
17.Dresden(1206)


Category Two

1.Bremen(150)
2.Hamborg(808)
3.Konigsberg(1255)(Note:Two dots over the u!)(Prussian Capital)
4.Danzig(980)
5.Lubeck(700)(Note:Two dots over the u!)
6.Ellbing(890)
7.Rostock(1000's)
8.Ollnburg(Oldenburg)(1108)
9.Stralsund(1168)
10.Griefswald(1199)
11.Kiel(1233)
12.Bremerhaven(1200's)
13.Wilhelmshaven(1869)

Constructive Criticism welcome.

Categories 3+4 coming soon!

 

[kbk]

I can live without St. Louis, and I support placing Philadelphia and LA on the American lists.

I don't think we should bother with any more Alaska towns for list #3, there just are not that many, and any other Alaska towns are going to be pretty unimportant.

I am satisfied with the American list. Just keep an eye out if any of the colonies/territory names appear on other lists.

 

[kbk]

kbk, you were Dutch, weren't you?
If you are, what do you think about my Dutch list, would you add some changes?

I should qualify that: I'm of Dutch ancestry, and hardly actually speak any dutch, but the list looks fine to me.

 

[Virdrago]

I think, for historical sake, that adding Belorussian/ Ukrainian names to the Russian list would actually be a good idea (Kiev, Odessa, Minsk, Alma-Ata in Kazakhstan, Azov). After all, the time of Kievan Rus is really when the Russians start in the mod.

Also, German cities in Poland/prewar Prussia/Hanseatic League (or their German names - Konigsberg was important, so was Danzig, Breslau, Pressburg [Bratislava], Prague...).

 

[Al-Iskander]

Fair warning: I may have gone overboard with detail here

EDITS:
1) Umlauts sometimes do get used in scholarly transliteration, but I don't think they are that overwhelmingly important, since Joe Civer (i.e., you and I) probably can'tt pronounce Mongolian vowells correctly anyway.
2) I decided not to leave certain lists empty since I think there is precedence from the European system of naming colonial cities after political leaders and religious figures to validate giving expanded lists for each and every Civ.
3) Obviously, Beijing is better Chinese than Mongolian, even if the Mongols did found it, sorta, but Khanbaliq can be translated as just "Residence of the Khan," and thus isn't strictly tied to the location of Beijing. Also, Mongolia needs a coastal capital badly
4) About order of foundation, I went back and added the dates, but I didn't re-order the list.
Now, on with the original post:

I'll do Mongolia, since I'm living here and did a bit of study on this place and its history in grad school (I know, it's the internet, I could be anyone and say that, but you'll just have to trust me ). Apologies if I didn't match the RFC transcription, as I haven't had access to a Civ-capable computer in almost a year. Where I felt an explanation was necessary either for a city's inclusion or for my version of transcription, I included it. (As it turned out, this included every single city.) I guess I felt the need to do so much justifying since, as a primarily nomadic people, the Mongols haven't founded a whole lot of cities, excepting in the 20th century when they did so at the direction of Russian and Chinese Communists.

If anyone wants to work with me on making this list better, let me know and I'll happily collaborate. Constructive criticism is also welcome!

I- non-coastal cities in the continent

1. Kharakhorum- Standard transliteration of the Imperial Capital from the classical script (1220)
2. Ulaanbaatar- modern (Communist-era and later) name of the current capital, most accurate transliteration (1639 as Orgoo, 1706 renamed to Ikh Khuree, 1924 renamed to Ulaanbaatar)
3. Hohhot- capital of Inner Mongolia, also the Mongolian name, as opposed to the Chinese one. Also the capital of Altan Khan's sizable 16th century empire. (1580)
4. Ulaan-Ud - capital of the Buriat (formerly Buriat-Mongol) Republic of Russia, spelling is from Khalkh-Mongol (i.e., not Buryaad-Mongol/Russian), founded in 1666 as Udinskoye by Russian cossacks, renamed several times
5. Erkhuud - pre-Russian Mongolian name for the region that is today Irkutsk, and was populated almost exclusively by Buriat-Mongols (though this is disputed) before the Russian colonization of Siberia. Might be better as Russia's Irkutsk? Founded 1652 by Russians trading with Buriats.
6. Erdenet - Second largest city in Mongolia today (1975)
7. Darkhan - Third largest city in Mongolia today (1961)
8. Amarbayasgalant - large city-sized monastery complex in central-western Mongolia, built in the 1700s, survived Communism. (1727)
9. Sukhbaatar - Communist-era city in eastern Mongolia named after the barely pre-Communist revolutionary hero (1940)
10(a). Choibalsan- 4th largest city in Mongolia today, named after Mongolia's Stalinist dictator from the 30s through the 50s (1800s-ish)
10(b). Chahar - early 20th century semi-autonomous province of China covering large parts of what is today Inner Mongolia. Also an ethnonym for many Mongols in China. I offer this as an alternative since Choibalsan was a mass murderer. 1912.

II- coastal cities in the continent. As you can guess, this is a pain in the ass for landlocked Mongolia.
1. Khanbaliq - As you know, old Mongolian name for the city founded on the site of modern Beijing. Not really a coastal city, but kinda close? Moreover, it's the closest thing to a coastal capital the Mongols have ever had. Also, please do not use Dadu/Tatu, as that is a transcription of the Chinese name for this city. 1264
2. Olkhon - name of the island in the middle of Lake Baikal, which in Mongolian is referred to as Baigal Dalai, or Baikal Ocean, making this sort of a coastal location. sort of. 1987 - village of Khuzhir named administrative capital.
3. Khovsgol - province surrounding Lake Khovsgol in northern Mongolia, which is also called an Ocean (Dalai) in Mongolian. This lake is also home to the Mongolian Navy's one and only warship. I know this is a stretch Mongolian province of Khovsgol founded in 1931
4. Khalkh Gol - Gol is actually River, but Mongolia's a bit devoid of water. Anyway, rational: this abysmally tiny town (which I actually just visited last week) was the site of major fighting in 1939 between the Mongols and Soviets on one side and the Japanese and Manchu on the other.
5. Dalai Hot - Literally, "Ocean City." Completely fictional
6. Uvs Nuur - A lake in northwestern Mongolia
7. Hulun Nuur - A lake just across the Chinese border, but which still is recognized under its Mongolian name.
8. Khazaran - a Khazar city on the Caspian Sea. Not at all Mongolian, but nonetheless founded by a pseudo-Central-Asian nomadic people (major stretch) Somewhere between 600 and 1000AD
9. Gokturk - A collection of Turkic empires, originally (?) based in Mongolia, which stretched from the Caspian Sea to the Pacific Ocean. I think "Gok" might even mean "Blue" in Turkish. Also a major stretch. Between 551 and 747 AD
10. Shine Dalai Hot - "New Ocean City." Can you tell I'm struggling here?

III- non-coastal cities in another continent. Note: I took some liberties here, using both cities that have strong connections to Mongolia historically, but aren't really part of "Mongolia" as I alone define it and a few completely fictional names.
1. Kazan' - modern version likely founded by the Golden Horde, technically in Europe. Horde founding would have been in the mid 1400s.
2. Lhasa - strong connection to Mongolia for religious reasons, not founded by any other Civ in this game, and not really in "Mongolia." I know this is like having the French found Rome, but a Christian world without that city would be as curious as a Buddhist world without Lhasa. 641 AD - ish
3. Khem-Beldyr - post-1914 and pre-1926 name of Kyzyl, capital of the Tyva Republic, which borders Mongolia and has strong historical and cultural connections to Mongolia, despite being linguistically "Turkic" rather than "Mongolian." (these terms are extremely poorly defined in common usage, and if you have a counter-argument, chances are it's valid, but not definitive). Founded by Russians in 1914.
4. Samarkhand - Not at all Mongolian, but it was the capital of Tamerlane's empire, and he claimed descent from Chinggis Khaan. I'm kinda reaching on this one. Originally founded in 700BC-ish?
5. Shambala - Tibetan Buddhist utopia. Sometimes Mongolia gets called this. I know it doesn't make sense if in-game Mongolia isn't Buddhist, but if a European civ isn't Christian in the game, then they shouldn't be allowed cities that start with Saint, San, or Sao either.
6. Altyn Orda - (Golden Horde) successor state to the Empire, outside of "Mongolia." Not a city, but I'm out of ideas.
7. Chagatai Ulus - A successor state to the Empire, outside of "Mongolia." Not a city, but I'm out of ideas.
8. Hulagu Ulus - A successor state to the Empire, outside of "Mongolia." Not a city, but I'm out of ideas.
9. Shine Kharakhorum - New Kharakhorum
10. Shine Ulaanbaatar - New Ulaanbaatar

IV- coastal cities in another continent. Note: I took the same liberties here as with List III.
1. Elista - Capital of the Kalmyk (Khalmyg-Mongol) Republic inside Russia, and technically in Europe. Kinda near the Caspian Sea. 1865
2. Astrakhan - Also inside European Russia, heavily Kalmyk (historically), and also near the Caspian Sea. Also the former capital of the Astrakhan Khanate (which admittedly was more "Tatar" than "Mongol"), existed in the 1200s, but rebuilt in 1459-ish.
3. Avalokiteshvara Hot - Important Buddha. This one and the next few are proposed in keeping with the idea that European colonizers named their colonies after important figures in their respective versions of Christianity. I have *no* idea if the Mongols would have done this if they had gone on an overseas colonizing spree after their conversion under Altan Khan, but it's all I can think of at the moment to fill the gaps. Hot, meaning City, is a transcription of хот, which is technically incorrect, but keeps us consistent with the accepted spelling of Hohhot (which I like better than the technically more correct Khokhkhot for aesthetic reasons). Alternatives might involve adding the not strictly necessary genitive case (Avalokiteshvariin Hot), or just leaving out the word City altogether (Avalokiteshvara).
4. Amitabha Hot - Important Buddha
5. Manjushri Hot - Important Buddha (I think?)
6. Shakyamuni Hot - Important (historical!) Buddha
7. Chinggis Hot - If the Romans, French, English, etc. can name colonies after kings/emperors, then why not the Mongols! (variations might include adding the word Khaan, adding the genitive case, dropping Hot, or even using Chinggis Khaan's birth name Temujin)
8. Khubilai Hot
9. Ogedei Hot
10. Monkh Hot

Comments please!

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Fabulous work, I think that the Mongolian city names are the hardest to come up with(well, Mali may be tough too, but we could use cities of Songhai and/or Ghana as Malinese cities).

 

[Virdrago]

Here are some Mongol city names. Some may be repeated from Al-Iskander's list. All were founded or captured by Genghis or his successors. Iskander, you can criticize at your leisure. These names were taken from books a few years ago; so I may be a little foggy on where I got the names:

1- non-coastal cities in the continent:
Karakorum - Genghis' capital.
Karakoto - one of the first cities taken by Genghis, named after the Kara-Kitai?
Urumchi - one of the first cities captured, and the area is part of the Mongol heartland.
Khanbalyk - Beijing. Also called Dadu by the Mongols. Too confusing?
Kaifeng - captured by the Jurchen (related to the Mongols), before Mongolia took over. In China, so it could be a stretch.
Kashgar - part of the Silk Road. Mongol power is noted for their control of the Silk Road.
Tashkent - destroyed by the Mongols, rebuilt by the Timurids. Silk Road again.
Samarkand - controlled by the Mongols again. See Al-Iskander's post.
Bokhara - Mongols destroyed it, Timurids rebuilt it, part of Silk Road. See Tashkent.
Tabriz - In northern Iran, but we should have enough Persian and Arab names?
Kabul - In Afghanistan. Could be Arab or Persian, but Persian name would be Kabura.
Herat - Afghanistan again. Aria in Persian, Artacoana to Alexander the Great.
Nishapur - razed by the Mongols, almost two million killed. May be better as Arab or Persian city.
Kirman - important Islamic cultural centre, so may be better for Arabia/Persia.
Shangtu - Kublai relocated his capital from Karakorum to here before moving to Khanbalyk (Beijing).
Basra - probably better as an Arab city. Was under Mongol control for over 100 years.
Maragha - in northwest Iran. Used as a base to attack Anatolia and the Levant.
Urga - original name of Ulaanbataar, Mongolia's modern capital. Renamed Ulaanbataar upon independence.
Tatung - Northern China, north of Beijing. Another Jurchen city taken by the Mongols. Also called Datong.
Sayram - Another Silk Road city. Today in Kazakhstan.
Chimkent - Caravanserai founded to protect Sayram. Genghis destroyed it, has been rebuilt.
Kukuhoto - see Al-Ikander's post for Hohhot. Another name for it, might be Jurchen.
Hangchow - Chinese capital of the Southern Song until it fell to the Mongols. May have been renamed Lin'an?
Chunking - Major city in Central China when it fell.
Balkh - Afghan city. Sacked by Genghis, then Tamerlane later. Ancient Bactra.
Kanchou - One of the last Chinese cities to fall. Modern Ganzhou (not Guanzhou).
Erdenet - current city/town in Mongolia. See Iskander's post.

2- coastal cities in the continent. I did not include any on Lake Baykal:

3- non-coastal cities in another continent. I have included Russian and Ukrainian cities here (Europe):
Kazan - see Iskander's post.
Astrakhan - a main trading centre for the Golden Horde.

4- coastal cities in another continent. Caucasian cities built on the Caspian are included here:
Serai - founded by Mongols in Russia. Supposedly was the capital of the Golden Horde for a while. Better than being named Old Serai like in the main game (see Berke Serai).
Berke Serai - founded by the Golden Horde to be closer to their Russian tributaries. Is thought to have been built in the Volga Delta, near the original Serai, by the Caspian (near Astrakhan). "Berke" is "New" in Mongolian (New Serai, like New Orleans and New York).
Derbent - In Caucasian Russia. Flourished under Mongol rule.

I don't seem to have any cities within category 2, though I did consider Aleppo (too close to being Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Turkish, Arab, etc.)

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

Here are category 3+4 of the German city list.

Category Three

1.Otjimbingwe(1849)
2.Weidmannsheil(1850)
3.Wituland(1858)
4.Luderitzbucht(1883))(Note:Two dots over the u!)
5.Windhoek(1885)
.............,
6.Yaounde(1888)
7.Bujumbura(1889)
8.Kigali(1907)
9.Bismarckburg(?)

Category Four

1.Klein Venedig(1529)
2.Grof Friedrichsburg(1683)
3.Krabbeninsel(1689)
4.Tertholen(1696)
5.Bagamoyo(1700's)
6.Dar es Salaam(1859)
7.Sebeib(1884)
8.Kaiser-Wilhelmsland(1884)
9.Marshallinseln(1885)
10.Swakopmund(1892)



Constructive Criticism welcome.