Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[Michael Vick]

I oppose coastal Seville, but if it means Cordoba will build my beloved Sevilla, then I guess it's a necessary evil. I do think I have a better idea for the placement though.

That grass tile that Ishbilliah is currently on in the screenshot, could be changed to coast, move the city 1 tile NE to it's actual location on the hill, and make the river flow under that hill, into the newly created coastal tile. This way Seville isn't actually on the coast, but has access to the rather fat mouth of the Guadalquivir. In fact, this actually looks more accurate. Give that some thought.

EDIT: After looking at it some more, it's perfect IMO. Cadiz can still be built in this situation as well, and given that Cadiz in real life is on a narrow spit of land stretching into the sea, this plan makes it look more like the real thing.

EDIT: The Atlantic Access would be on the tile NW of Cadiz, available to both Seville and Cadiz!

 

[jessiecat]

I oppose coastal Seville, but if it means Cordoba will build my beloved Sevilla, then I guess it's a necessary evil. I do think I have a better idea for the placement though.

That grass tile that Ishbilliah is currently on in the screenshot, could be changed to coast, move the city 1 tile NE to it's actual location on the hill, and make the river flow under that hill, into the newly created coastal tile. This way Seville isn't actually on the coast, but has access to the rather fat mouth of the Guadalquivir. In fact, this actually looks more accurate. Give that some thought.

EDIT: After looking at it some more, it's perfect IMO. Cadiz can still be built in this situation as well, and given that Cadiz in real life is on a narrow spit of land stretching into the sea, this plan makes it look more like the real thing.

EDIT: The Atlantic Access would be on the tile NW of Cadiz, available to both Seville and Cadiz!

Seville is about 120 k SW of Cordoba, not due West. Therefore it should be on the tile S of the hill, not on it.

 

[Michael Vick]

You're forgetting about the tilt. I think this is correct.

 

[jessiecat]

You're forgetting about the tilt. I think this is correct.

There is no tilt. Check any other map compared to ours. Like this one. Its SW not West. You're wrong, I'm afraid.

 

[Michael Vick]

Yes, in the map it's SW. But look at the angles of the coast of the Bay of Biscay in our map and yours and then tell me there's no tilt.

 

[st.lucifer]

Yes, in the map it's SW. But look at the angles of the coast of the Bay of Biscay in our map and yours and then tell me there's no tilt.

Yes, there's a tilt. An imperfect solution to a problem of perspective - I believe I had it flat in the first incarnation and someone objected to it. It doesn't really matter at this point - I could redo Iberia to flatten it, but would prefer not to in part because it would require redoing settler and war maps as well.

It's not a perfect solution, but what about making any city founded S of the river mouth Cadiz and N of the river mouth Sevilla?

 

[Michael Vick]

I don't think it's the city name map that's the problem, but the location of the tile that will be favored by the AI, which I think should be that hill.

 

[JediClemente]

The tilt is quite evident for Iberia, and if you ask me, a bit distracting for some cities' positions. Always was.

We already moved Cordoba 1 W. It's a lot of work to change the map now.

I think it's better to keep it that way.

Seville shouldn't really have coastal access. Just to point it out, some people from Cadiz and Huelva would find it offensive.

 

[st.lucifer]

The tilt is quite evident for Iberia, and if you ask me, a bit distracting for some cities' positions. Always was.

We already moved Cordoba 1 W. It's a lot of work to change the map now.

I think it's better to keep it that way.

Seville shouldn't really have coastal access. Just to point it out, some people from Cadiz and Huelva would find it offensive.

I'm going to play around with making an un-tilted version of Iberia, and see if that helps any. I realize that this will make a lot of follow-up changes necessary, and if people are against using the flattened version, that's fine, but as you pointed out, the shift is noticeable and distracting. Let me see what I can do, and if people like it, we'll make the switch.

 

[jessiecat]

I'm going to play around with making an un-tilted version of Iberia, and see if that helps any. I realize that this will make a lot of follow-up changes necessary, and if people are against using the flattened version, that's fine, but as you pointed out, the shift is noticeable and distracting. Let me see what I can do, and if people like it, we'll make the switch.

Perhaps you could explain for me how our Iberia is tilted as opposed to any other map version. Tilted compared to what? Someone show me the correct version. To me it is roughly the same as the map I posted. And if Iberia is so badly tilted what about the rest of the map?

 

[st.lucifer]

Perhaps you could explain for me how our Iberia is tilted as opposed to any other map version. Tilted compared to what? Someone show me the correct version. To me it is roughly the same as the map I posted. And if Iberia is so badly tilted what about the rest of the map?

Ok, the map that I worked from when initially creating the map for the mod used a projection which led to a curve on the outside edges. Look at Africa - there's a 30-degree tilt from west to east. Iberia has the same issue, at a slightly lower percentage - on most world maps, Iberia is set at a roughly 90-degree angle from France. On my map, it's more like 75-80 degrees, which isn't really a problem - but if we're having this debate about city placement now, it might be worth looking at the map itself. I'm going to see what it looks like if I try to remove the tilt. I'll have to drop Morocco a little, and it'll probably end up adding a few tiles to the peninsula as a whole, but it might look better.


If the changes necessitated by this shift require too much backfilling, we'll probably go with the original map.

 

[Michael Vick]

Yes, the tilt is quite obvious, especially when you look at it's relationship with France. Besides the tilt, I think that the Iberia map should be a bit drier than it is right now, as in less green tiles so far South, and definitely less forests, I'll see if I can help when you come up with a rough outline of the shape of the new Iberia. We've done so much editing from the original it might be good to start a new one from scratch.

 

[JediClemente]

The problem is the same as some time before. I already proposed changing cities' locations, and desisted. It's a HUGE deal of rework on the settlermaps, for Spain, Cordoba, Portugal, Arabia and France, at least.

Being from Andalusia, cities there just look weird, but I've coped to live with it.

And not just the cities, rivers also.

Look jessiecat, you see no tilt, but in most maps, Portuguese coast is a moreless exact vertical line, for example. That's not the case here.

Yes, the tilt is quite obvious, especially when you look at it's relationship with France. Besides the tilt, I think that the Iberia map should be a bit drier than it is right now, as in less green tiles so far South, and definitely less forests, I'll see if I can help when you come up with a rough outline of the shape of the new Iberia. We've done so much editing from the original it might be good to start a new one from scratch.

I disagree. Surely Spain is drier now, but it's been a long process of desertification, accelerated in the past century.

Remember in Roman times Hispania (name taken from "rabbit's land" in phoenician) was supposedly full of forests everywhere. The AI (or you) is supposed to cut down most of those.

If anything, I'd remove the desert from Almeria in the map. I'm not sure it's historically accurate.

 

[micbic]

I don't know how much of a correct solution it is (Jedi and Michael surely know better), but as regards the city naming of the area: Cadiz S of river, Huelva N, Sevilla inland.

 

[Michael Vick]

Let's see if we can actually agree on what the terrain there will look like, then we'll see where the cities go.

I know that jedi is against water access for Seville, and the others are mostly for it, I don't care which we go with as long as Seville gets founded and the terrain seems more or less accurate (for example, I wouldn't be happy if we implemented Jessiecat's version of the area as shown in his screenshot).

Would it be too weird if Seville started out as coast but then the terrain switched to land somewhere in the 15th or 16th century?

EDIT: Yes, it would be, nevermind

 

[jessiecat]

Let's see if we can actually agree on what the terrain there will look like, then we'll see where the cities go.

I know that jedi is against water access for Seville, and the others are mostly for it, I don't care which we go with as long as Seville gets founded and the terrain seems more or less accurate (for example, I wouldn't be happy if we implemented Jessiecat's version of the area as shown in his screenshot).

Would it be too weird if Seville started out as coast but then the terrain switched to land somewhere in the 15th or 16th century?

EDIT: Yes, it would be, nevermind

I mostly agree with you I guess. But it's all academic as Cordoba won't build Seville if it's inland. Both that AI and the human player would build on the coast, wouldn't they?

 

[micbic]

The AI gets its builds based on the settler map. A strong Seville tile with high value at the AI settler map will get founded, (I am thinking of the 3W-1S of Cordoba)

 

[Michael Vick]

The AI gets its builds based on the settler map. A strong Seville tile with high value at the AI settler map will get founded, (I am thinking of the 3W-1S of Cordoba)

Your proposal for moving it a tile South is in question because of the tilt. This is what sparked the whole discussion about redoing Spain. I think if the map stays the same, Seville should be the same longitude as Cordoba.

 

[micbic]

Sorry, many mistakes, correct map below

 

[Wessel V1]

It will, but we also want the AI to be competitive. I'd rather have a city called something else than Sevilla, than Sevilla and a worse location. Honestly, I'd rather teach the AI to find the strongest spots available, which may differ each game, than teach it to found cities in accurate positions. The game simply can't simulate it all on such a high detail that the whole picture fits. Then we would have to give mines with coal a +10 food bonus, to simulate the large urbanization in the 19th centuries in cities near coal mines.

So, I have no objection for Sevilla to be coastal, but make sure then that it is the best location in the region.