Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[jessiecat]

Thanks for your observations. I accept your points about all civs being fairly
intolerant about minorities at some point or other. I especially agree about
Protestantism being no more tolerant than Catholicism. Hence the various
Wars of Religion in Europe. England had it's share of anti-Catholic persecution
and discriminatory laws which persisted well into the 20th. century.

Still not comfortable with the idea of Muslim civs being encouraged to purge
religious minorities though. I'd be happier if the 3 civs concerned had some
extra incentive which encouraged them not to take up the Inquisition option.
Maybe no happiness penalty for Jewish minorities in Muslim civs might work.
I'm not sure. Maybe there's a compromise here somehow?

 

[Zipzapzup]

Nobody expects the Bulgarian Inquisition!

I really laughed at this one. Guess it was an allusion to this monty sketch, right?

Ehm by the way, can someone please tell me now the exact dates? Because you switched the topic so fast i didnt get the answer.

About the religion thing, i would suguest that we handle all religions except Judaism (because of their minor role in european history) equally.

 

[Úmarth]

I dunno, given that the focus is Europe I think we should shunt Islam to the side somewhat - perhaps making the Muslim civs unplayable minors like Byzantium in RFC.

 

[st.lucifer]

I dunno, given that the focus is Europe I think we should shunt Islam to the side somewhat - perhaps making the Muslim civs unplayable minors like Byzantium in RFC.

Given the importance of the Ottomans and the Arabs to European affairs during this time period, I can't support that idea. I mean, the Arabs made all the way to Poiters, and held Spain for centuries; the Turks were besieging Vienna up to the 1600s, and the Crusader states had extensive dealings with (and even alliances with) Muslim nations for a significant period of time.

The Eurocentrism of this mod does eliminate the Mongols (who actually have a fairly strong argument for inclusion), and reduce the number and importance of Arab civs - but we've got to keep the three that we have.

 

[st.lucifer]

Thanks for your observations. I accept your points about all civs being fairly
intolerant about minorities at some point or other. I especially agree about
Protestantism being no more tolerant than Catholicism. Hence the various
Wars of Religion in Europe. England had it's share of anti-Catholic persecution
and discriminatory laws which persisted well into the 20th. century.

Still not comfortable with the idea of Muslim civs being encouraged to purge
religious minorities though. I'd be happier if the 3 civs concerned had some
extra incentive which encouraged them not to take up the Inquisition option.
Maybe no happiness penalty for Jewish minorities in Muslim civs might work.
I'm not sure. Maybe there's a compromise here somehow?

Nobody's going to necessarily be encouraged to purge religious minorities - it's not going to be a cheap or painless process. Some civs will probably benefit from it more than others, but I believe firmly that it should be an option under all religions.

I'm partial to my Ottoman idea for dealing with religious minorities in Muslim countries, but I'm not sure that it makes sense to eliminate happiness penalties for Judaism in Muslim countries - there were still Jewish quarters in most large Muslim cities (ghettos, effectively), and there were pogroms in Muslim nations as well as Christian ones. I'd like input from other people before we commit to any one way of handling it, but I want to make sure that we don't give any religion special powers (other than the way we're handling Judaism, which is sort of a double-edged sword.)

 

[Disenfrancised]

Nobody's going to necessarily be encouraged to purge religious minorities - it's not going to be a cheap or painless process. Some civs will probably benefit from it more than others, but I believe firmly that it should be an option under all religions.

I'm partial to my Ottoman idea for dealing with religious minorities in Muslim countries, but I'm not sure that it makes sense to eliminate happiness penalties for Judaism in Muslim countries - there were still Jewish quarters in most large Muslim cities (ghettos, effectively), and there were pogroms in Muslim nations as well as Christian ones. I'd like input from other people before we commit to any one way of handling it, but I want to make sure that we don't give any religion special powers (other than the way we're handling Judaism, which is sort of a double-edged sword.)

Catholicism should at least be present for the Military and Monk orders which is something of a special power.

 

[st.lucifer]

I really laughed at this one. Guess it was an allusion to this monty sketch, right?

Ehm by the way, can someone please tell me now the exact dates? Because you switched the topic so fast i didnt get the answer.

About the religion thing, i would suguest that we handle all religions except Judaism (because of their minor role in european history) equally.

Yep, that's the one.

Sorry about the dates! I think we're still arguing about them. I'm going to propose that the Norse start in 770, when Aarhus was officially founded. This is a little later than I'd like, but it prevents them from getting too big before anyone else shows up (particularly as we're starting England and Germany late).

I'm still torn on the Burgundy issue. Historically, they should be fairly late - 840 does seem about right - but I worry that in terms of game balance, this will end up hurting France, Germany, or both in ways that they won't be able to recover from. We could solve this problem by having them spawn further south, but that creates a different set of issues regarding historical accuracy.

 

[st.lucifer]

Catholicism should at least be present for the Military and Monk orders which is something of a special power.

That's true. But those are all likely to be founded before the Reformation anyway, so it only presents an advantage over Muslim civs. Should we make a Muslim-only order as well? Does anything make sense other than the Assassins, which aren't exactly comparable?

 

[mitsho]

- Arabs and Turks need to be playable, they are much fun.
- So far, there are 5 or 6 religions (depending on wether we split Protestantism into P. and "National rite" which then should have a real low spread rate, but a special bonus). This is quite low, and I just thought why not introduce "Humanism" as well. Of course it is not a religion, but it would be a neat way to present the enlightment or a shift away from religious dominance. It probably wouldn't right for it to be a state religion (in the time scope of the mod), but it could spread easily to everywhere (ignore religions present in a city) and be powerful trough the "Tolerance" ("Free religion with a state religion" - someone proposed a UP like this for the ottomans before) or another civic.

Details are really up for grab, I just wanted to brainstorm my idea, as 6 religions are underpar for a game of civ on this large a map, aren't they?

m

 

[Depravo]

'National rite' calls to mind men with torches holding nocturnal meetings in clearings. I prefer 'reformed'.

 

[mitsho]

whatever...

 

[st.lucifer]

'National rite' calls to mind men with torches holding nocturnal meetings in clearings. I prefer 'reformed'.

Who controls the British crown?

We do! We do!

Who keeps the metric system down?

We do! We do!




'Reformed' is fine with me - but the more we subdivide our religions, the more it's going to inhibit alliances and good relations among historically friendly civs. It's sort of a question of how much we want things to fragment after the Reformation - certainly, they did - but how much of that do we want to preserve? I'd argue that Henry VIII creating the Anglican church was an important movement in European history, but is it worthy of inclusion here?

 

[jessiecat]

That's true. But those are all likely to be founded before the Reformation anyway, so it only presents an advantage over Muslim civs. Should we make a Muslim-only order as well? Does anything make sense other than the Assassins, which aren't exactly comparable?

I may have the answer to that. Are we using the Ansar warrior as a U.U.?
There's another unit of the period which might fit the bill.
Called "Ghazi"s after the first followers of the Prophet, they were religious zealots
who fought for Jihad and for plunder. Originally rugged border horsemen carrying
multi weapons, they often hired themselves out as bands of mercenaries to whatever
ruler paid them most. They were fanatical and feared everywhere, so they'd be an
ideal U.U. esp if we just use the Cathaginian U.U., the Numidian light cavalry unit to
differentiate them from the ordinary Ansar warrior/heavy cavalry or knight unit.
For Al Andalus this might make an ideal mounted unit instead of Camel archers,
There they might just be called Moorish or Berber cavalry. You've seen the pictures,
veiled, clad in blue and black, like Tuaregs on horses.

 

[st.lucifer]

I may have the answer to that. Are we using the Ansar warrior as a U.U.?
There's another unit of the period which might fit the bill.
Called "Ghazi"s after the first followers of the Prophet, they were religious zealots
who fought for Jihad and for plunder. Originally rugged border horsemen carrying
multi weapons, they often hired themselves out as bands of mercenaries to whatever
ruler paid them most. They were fanatical and feared everywhere, so they'd be an
ideal U.U. esp if we just use the Cathaginian U.U., the Numidian light cavalry unit to
differentiate them from the ordinary Ansar warrior/heavy cavalry or knight unit.
For Al Andalus this might make an ideal mounted unit instead of Camel archers,
There they might just be called Moorish or Berber cavalry. You've seen the pictures,
veiled, clad in blue and black, like Tuaregs on horses.

That would make a good UU, but I'm talking about a monastic or military order - read the earlier posts about those (main thread) for how we're going to do them (replacing corporations.)

 

[jessiecat]

That would make a good UU, but I'm talking about a monastic or military order - read the earlier posts about those (main thread) for how we're going to do them (replacing corporations.)

Fine, as U.U. then. BTW I've looked all through the three threads and
have only seen a brief suggestion about monastic/military orders replacing
corporations. How would this work, as a unique power? Would they have
a building? Would they have a unit? What would their function or effects be?
If you do mean as a U.P., then for the Arabs it should be Jihad as suggested.
For Al Andalus it should be Arab Medicine, enabling early hospitals, as in
the Civ 3 Middle Ages scenario.
I guess I've missed the discussion on this though.
Could you please briefly describe again what you're suggesting?

 

[Zipzapzup]

Anyone still on this project? No new posting half a month. What happened?

 

[jessiecat]

Anyone still on this project? No new posting half a month. What happened?

Don't know. Suddenly stopped after the 16th. Others have been about on
the forums. But no posts. Maybe somebody should PM st. lucifer.

 

[st.lucifer]

Sorry, I'm still around. Have been swamped by work stuff recently.

*blinks in the sunlight*

What needs doing right now?

 

[jessiecat]

Sorry, I'm still around. Have been swamped by work stuff recently.

*blinks in the sunlight*

What needs doing right now?

It's just that i was asking you a question about the U.P. thing then all
discussion ceased on both threads. Something I said?
The good news is that I finally got my machine back, all fixed now.
New fans, kick-ass motherboard and 3 gigs of ram. ready to rock and roll.
Would like to download the latest version of the map if you've got it.
Could you or somebody post a link?
Anyway, welcome back. Hope your work was fruitful.

 

[st.lucifer]

The plan was to have monastic/military orders fill some of the corporation slots, with each providing substantial benefits and costs to the cities in which they were present. Some civs might have 'found X order in X' as one of their UHV's (i.e. Germany: found Teutonic Knights; spread to 3 Baltic cities), but the orders would not be civ-specific. There was a pretty extensive discussion of this before, which may be in the general thread rather than in a civ-specific or map-specific one. I'll do some digging for it later if you can't find it.