jessiecat
Divine Monarch
From a search of the threads, it seems the last agreed dates were in this post.
Should be fairly accurate I think.
Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Squirrelloid
- Start date
From a search of the threads, it seems the last agreed dates were in this post.
Should be fairly accurate I think.
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
That's the list I was working from but as I found it's far from accurate. For a start it had been decided that Germany and Papacy would spawn much later, Arabia's spawn is too late, Cordoba's spawn is (way) too early, Burgundy's spawn wasn't fully agreed upon, at which point I gave up because, like I said, I just couldn't remember or find out whether some of the inaccuracies had been discussed and justified for game play purposes or for a historical reason my limited research missed.
You can make the civs into links yourself but I'll do it if you like.
Are you certain that you're logged in?How can I add the Bulgaria civ details that st. lucifer and I worked out to the civ list?
Maybe if the civs were highlighted we could open them up and add stuff to them like
you did with the Byzantines. Also there seems to be an access issue with the page.
When I try "edit" it gives me "access denied" even though I've joined the wiki.
What's up?
You can make the civs into links yourself but I'll do it if you like.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Úmarth;6764655 said:
OK. But I'm surprised you say the Arabia and Cordoba spawns are incorrect. While Arabia could be 632AD (death of Muhammed) historically, Cordoba can't be any later than the Moorish invasion of Spain in 711AD. But there was doubt about Burgandy spawning so much later than France. I agree with you on that one.
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
Arabia isn't far off, it's just that by 660AD they'd already conquered Egypt, the Levant and Mesopotamia so I figured it would be better at 630AD, the rise of the Rashidun dynasty.
I was confused about Cordoba because all the maps I'd seen it's included as part of the Ummayad dynasty (Arabia) and didn't become an independent Caliphate until ~1000AD (although it was an autonomous emirate before that, but then so was the rest of the Islamic world). I see what you mean about the Moors/Berbers though. Anyway, I'm sure this has been sorted out before which is why I asked st.lucifer to do it.
I was confused about Cordoba because all the maps I'd seen it's included as part of the Ummayad dynasty (Arabia) and didn't become an independent Caliphate until ~1000AD (although it was an autonomous emirate before that, but then so was the rest of the Islamic world). I see what you mean about the Moors/Berbers though. Anyway, I'm sure this has been sorted out before which is why I asked st.lucifer to do it.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Úmarth;6764736 said:
Yes, I think the confusion with Cordoba lies in the name. We really shouldn't be calling it a Caliphate as that only existed from about 930 to 1050. For our game we're just starting a 2nd Arab civ in N. Africa and Spain which becomes the Emirate of Cordoba later on. So a 700-720 start date would be appropriate in my view. But, of course st. lucifer can look them all again and decide, as you say.
BTW I've now signed on to the wiki properly and have entered the Bulgaria stuff. Thanks.
st.lucifer
King
I'll see what I can do. It may be a day or two before I can post it, but I'll try to add it here and to the wiki.
One point of contention that seems easy to clear up - we'd been referring to the 'Cordoba' mentioned in this list as 'al-Andalus'. Clunky, but removes confusion about whether it applies to the Caliphate of Cordoba, or some other entity centered around that city.
One point of contention that seems easy to clear up - we'd been referring to the 'Cordoba' mentioned in this list as 'al-Andalus'. Clunky, but removes confusion about whether it applies to the Caliphate of Cordoba, or some other entity centered around that city.
Úmarth
Megalomaniac
I like Disenfranchised's turn scheme:
100 Turns at 4yrs/t (500-900)
200 Turns at 3yrs/t (900-1500)
100 Turns at 2yrs/t (1500-1700)
100 Turns at 1yrs/t (1700-1800/1850)
100 Turns at 4yrs/t (500-900)
200 Turns at 3yrs/t (900-1500)
100 Turns at 2yrs/t (1500-1700)
100 Turns at 1yrs/t (1700-1800/1850)
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Úmarth;6766854 said:
Although I suggested something else before, I've come around to that one too. I agree.
ijnavy
Czar
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2008
- Messages
- 405
From the coordination thread:
Byzantines 500 AD
1. Make sure that there are 10 Orthodox nations.
2. Build 10 world wonders by 1300.
3. Control Italy, Balkans, and Levant in 1300.
Papal States 752
1. Make sure that the world is 40% Catholic
2. Build the Apostolic Palace, 3 Catholic Churches, 3 Catholic Cathedrals, and 3 Catholic monasteries by 1300.
3. Only religion in Spain, France, and Italy is Catholic in 1700 (Add inquisitor unit).
France 500
1. Paris most cultural city in 1500.
2. Control Iberia, Italy, and Germany in 1810.
3. Build the Canada and West African projects.
Portugal 1139
1. No Al-Andalusian cities in Iberian peninsula in 1400.
2. Most reveled map in 1700.
3. Build Brazil project.
Spain 500?
1. No Al-Andalusian cities in Iberia in 1400.
2. Only religion in Iberia is Catholic in 1400 and no trading with non catholic nations.
3. Build Peru and Argentina projects.
England 1066?
1. No foreign culture in British Islands from 1200 to end of game.
2. Build the US and South Africa projects.
3. Build the Hong Kong and Australian projects.
Moscow 1147 or 1304
1. Don't loose any city by 1500 to Barbarians (Mongols).
2. Control Constantinople and no foreign culture in Russia in 1700.
3. Build the Kremlin and Siberian project by 1800 AD.
List of the 12 projects:
Canada
US
Peru
Argentina
Brazil
West Africa
South Africa
Siberia
India
Indonesia
Australia
Hong Kong
I also propose that when you build a certain project you get a certain amount of gold, a certain resource, and 3 ships corresponding to your techs.
Byzantines 500 AD
1. Make sure that there are 10 Orthodox nations.
2. Build 10 world wonders by 1300.
3. Control Italy, Balkans, and Levant in 1300.
Papal States 752
1. Make sure that the world is 40% Catholic
2. Build the Apostolic Palace, 3 Catholic Churches, 3 Catholic Cathedrals, and 3 Catholic monasteries by 1300.
3. Only religion in Spain, France, and Italy is Catholic in 1700 (Add inquisitor unit).
France 500
1. Paris most cultural city in 1500.
2. Control Iberia, Italy, and Germany in 1810.
3. Build the Canada and West African projects.
Portugal 1139
1. No Al-Andalusian cities in Iberian peninsula in 1400.
2. Most reveled map in 1700.
3. Build Brazil project.
Spain 500?
1. No Al-Andalusian cities in Iberia in 1400.
2. Only religion in Iberia is Catholic in 1400 and no trading with non catholic nations.
3. Build Peru and Argentina projects.
England 1066?
1. No foreign culture in British Islands from 1200 to end of game.
2. Build the US and South Africa projects.
3. Build the Hong Kong and Australian projects.
Moscow 1147 or 1304
1. Don't loose any city by 1500 to Barbarians (Mongols).
2. Control Constantinople and no foreign culture in Russia in 1700.
3. Build the Kremlin and Siberian project by 1800 AD.
List of the 12 projects:
Canada
US
Peru
Argentina
Brazil
West Africa
South Africa
Siberia
India
Indonesia
Australia
Hong Kong
I also propose that when you build a certain project you get a certain amount of gold, a certain resource, and 3 ships corresponding to your techs.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
That's a list of modern colonial nations, not even remotely a list of colonies, plus it should be ships giving you the colonies, not the other way round:
For a maximum full list of possibles I'd say this will cover it:
Code:
Maximal List (pre 1800)
Name Resource Alt Resource Requirements Other Advantage Disadvantage
Gold Coast Gold*2 - Lighthouse*1, Caravel*3 - Upkeep
Slave Coast (National) Slaves*2? cpt Lighthouse*1, Caravel*3 - Cannot be used w/ 'liberal' civics, unhappiness when others shift
Ivory Coast Ivory*2 - Lighthouse*1, Caravel*3 - Upkeep
Sugar Island (national) Sugar*1 - Market*2, Caravel*4 +gpt w/slaves Cannot be used w/'liberal' civics (intensive sugar cultivation took slaves)
Mexican Conquests Gold*1, - Galleon*3, gpt Increases rate of inflation, may give revolts
Silver*2 'Large Army'
Incan Conquests Gold*1, - Galleon*3, gpt Increases rate of inflation, may give revolts
Silver*3 'Large Army'
Manila Galleons Silk*3, - Galleon*4, gpt Can give revolts
Spices*1 >3 Silver
Malabar Coast Pepper*2 Spices*2 Customs House*1, - Upkeep, obsolete when someone builds HEIC
Galleon*3
Coromandel Coast Spices*1, Spices*2 Customs House*1 - Upkeep, obsolete when someone builds HEIC
Cottens*1 Galleon*3
Bengali Holdings Silk*1, ??? Customs House*1 - Upkeep, obsolete when someone builds HEIC
Cottens*2 Galleon*3
'Significant Army'
Ceylon Spices*1, - Customs House*2 Decreases cost Upkeep
Galleon*1 of other asian
wonders
Malacca Spices*1 - Galleon*7 +gpt for each Obsolete when some builds VOC
other colony
The Molucca Islands Spices*5 - Customs House*1 - Large Upkeep, obselete when some builds VOC
Galleon*3
Cuban Plantations Sugar*2 Sugar*3 Caravel*3 +gpt w/slaves Cannot be used under liberal civics, chance of revolts
Coffee*1
North Brazilian Holdings Sugar*3 - Caravel*6, +gpt w/slaves Population points can randomly move to the new world
Food Excess
South Brazilian Holdings Coffee*1 Sugar*1 Caravel*6, - Population points can randomly move to the new world
Iron*1 Food Excess
Gems*1
Plymouth Colony Fish*3 - Galleon*4 +15% Population points can randomly move to the new world
Customs House*2 Shipbuildrate
Jamestown Colony/Virginia Company Tobacco*2 - Galleon*2 +gpt w/slaves Population points can randomly move to the new world
Wheat*1 Bank*1
Customs House*1
St Laurence Furs Furs*2 - Caravel*2
Cape Town - - Galleon*6 +gpt for each
other colony
Witwasserrand Gold*3 - Capetown - Population points can randomly move to the new world
Gems*1 'Large Army'
Swahili Coast Ivory*3 - Frigate*3 gpt Chances of revolt
Spices*2
Siberian Ostrogs Furs*3 - Cavalry*4, +3 trade routes,
within 10 squares of provides extra units
eastern map edge in draft
Far Eastern Ostrogs Silks*3 - Cavalry*8 +3 trade routes,
within 10 squares of provides extra units
eastern map edge in draft
Siberian Ostrogs
Far Eastern Treaty Port (national) Silks*2 - Frigates*8 +2 Trade routes
Banks*2
Lighthouse*1
Hudson Bay Company Furs*4 - Banks*3 +2 Trade routes
Lighthouse*1
Explorers*3
VOC Sugar*3 - Banks*2 +1 gold for every
Spices*5 Custom house*2 spice resource in
Coffee*3 Frigates*8 use
HEIC Cottens*5 - Banks*4 +2 Trade routes large upkeep
Spices*2 'Greatest Naval Power' +1 hammer for every
Wheat*2 cottens resource in
Sugar*1 use,
provides many extra
units in draftThough obviously pick and choose from the 28
. I think having the colonial wonders need a naval units requirement is a) quite apt, and b) will bring some use to the naval aspect that will probably otherwise be under valued.
ijnavy
Czar
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2008
- Messages
- 405
I'm with you on the amount of colonies, how about 17/18? Instead of the late wonders, we can have the colonies?
I also read in the first rhye's of Europe thread on corporations, how about these?
military:
-Templars
-Hospitallers
-Teutonic Knights
Trading:
Virginia company
East india company
Moscovy company
Religions, I am positive that these religions will be included:
Islam ALWAYS founded by Arabia and dominates the middle east, but almost never penetrates into Europe- 623
Catholic ALWAYS founded in Rome, dominates western Europe until Protestant- 500
Orthodox ALWAYS founded in either Greece or Constantinople, dominates eastern Europe, until the Ottomans conquer its territory- 500
Protestant Founded between 1300 and 1550 by Germany of England, sometimes somewhere in central Europe, grows quickly and rivals catholic. Mostly in central Europe and England.
How do my UHV look?
I also read in the first rhye's of Europe thread on corporations, how about these?
military:
-Templars
-Hospitallers
-Teutonic Knights
Trading:
Virginia company
East india company
Moscovy company
Religions, I am positive that these religions will be included:
Islam ALWAYS founded by Arabia and dominates the middle east, but almost never penetrates into Europe- 623
Catholic ALWAYS founded in Rome, dominates western Europe until Protestant- 500
Orthodox ALWAYS founded in either Greece or Constantinople, dominates eastern Europe, until the Ottomans conquer its territory- 500
Protestant Founded between 1300 and 1550 by Germany of England, sometimes somewhere in central Europe, grows quickly and rivals catholic. Mostly in central Europe and England.
How do my UHV look?
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
@ijnavy:The colonial companies do not make sense for organisations that spread within europe, so I think we decided on the Medici Bank, The Ausberg Banking Families, and the Hanseatic league as our traders, the Templers and Teutonics as military, and the last two as yet unchosen (one definately a militant order though).
Why not just have most* of that in their spawn zone? that way it'll flip a few turns after their spawn at about ~650AD.
*i.e. egypt sans Alexandria, the levant up to Damascus, and all of Mesopotamia that makes it onto the map.
Úmarth;6764736 said:
Why not just have most* of that in their spawn zone? that way it'll flip a few turns after their spawn at about ~650AD.
*i.e. egypt sans Alexandria, the levant up to Damascus, and all of Mesopotamia that makes it onto the map.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Can I make a couple of comments? Just my opinion. How about the Hudson Bay Company
and whatever the French had in Canada? In general, I'm a little worried about balance here.
Would all civs get an equal chance at colonies? Esp. the landlocked ones?
Wouldn't the coastal civs have huge winning advantages? Or would the
others have other projects just as important to compensate?
As far as religions go, why restrict Islam so much? Historically it had a huge impact
on Europe in the early part of our mod. If the Arabs, the Cordobans and the Ottomans
do well in gameplay, why shouldn't they get the chance to spread their
religion as much as everybody else? Esp. if it's one of their UHV conditions?
ijnavy
Czar
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2008
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- 405
Every civ can make a company if their city is near the ocean, river, or lake. How about for the religions, we add Judaism, Sunni and Shiite, instead of Islam, and another Christian sect? Islam is restricted until 14th century before which Europe was very closed? How do my UHV look?
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
By making the colonial wonders have a large naval requirement, the coastal civs will have to invest considerable resources there, whilst the landlocked civs will not, and thus can pick up other wonders/build uber armies. Letting landlocked states have an equal chance at colonial wonders is rather crazy IMO.
'sides look at RL - historical landlocked states didn't do so well post 1700s
...@ijnavy
10 nations is hard in the hubble and bubble of rise and fall.
The pope ain't a playable civ.
For a civ that spawns at the start these are some very late UHVs. re: 3 west africa occured after the mods scope, and Canada was never something France tried very hard at, 2. is also a bit crazy and I would rather that France made vassals of all those states.
You're just copying 2. from RoC, and it doesn't make sense for a europe map, Brazil was a side effect to the Asian empire for most of the time as well.
Peru and Argentina? re: 2. 1400 is before the inquisition for the most part.
1 is going to be pretty much impossible given Paris exists from the start. the other two are silly as colonial projects as discussed earlier.
These are better though I'd make 1 much later, have 2 as unify Orthodox slavic areas and 3 might not make sense depending on what we do with the Kremlin (indeed I think we should use the kremlin graphics for Muscovy's UB)
ijnavy
Czar
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2008
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- 405
How do my UHV look???
We have the trading, religions, and corporations, here are my proposals for the plagues (10 turns each):
1. 525- 565: the Plague of Justinian (Byzantine Empire)
2. Middle East 640-680
3. The Black Death (Bubonic plague) 1340–1370
-Recurrences of Bubonic plague:
A. England 1450-1480
B. Germany, and Low Countries 1545-1565
C. France, Italy, Austria, Russia, Scandinavia, and Spain 1660-1680
4. Smallpox 1750-1760
We have the trading, religions, and corporations, here are my proposals for the plagues (10 turns each):
1. 525- 565: the Plague of Justinian (Byzantine Empire)
2. Middle East 640-680
3. The Black Death (Bubonic plague) 1340–1370
-Recurrences of Bubonic plague:
A. England 1450-1480
B. Germany, and Low Countries 1545-1565
C. France, Italy, Austria, Russia, Scandinavia, and Spain 1660-1680
4. Smallpox 1750-1760
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I take the point about companies. But not about Islam. Europe was not closed to Islam before the
14th.C.. Arab armies got as far as central France and Italy in the 8th. C. And the vastly superior science and learning in Baghdad and Cordoba had so much impact on Europe that it's likely that even
the Renaissance wouldn't have happened without it. With that kind of cultural impact in Europe, wouldn't it have been possible for Islam to spread with it, at least in our mod? Having been the dominant religion of Iberia and later the Balkans for over 500 years I really wouldn't describe Islam as restricted. Why should it be restricted in our game? IMHO
BTW I remember Judaism was rejected as a religion early in the discussions after much
debate, though it could exist as a feature in cities. And the Shiite split only affected
the Arabs in N. Africa for a brief period and had no impact on Al Andalus or the Ottomans
so splitting Islam wouldn't make sense either. Sorry.
ijnavy
Czar
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2008
- Messages
- 405
Didn't it only follow the armies? I think that Islam had such an impact because its armies were everywhere.
For the Byzantines, the UHV should be hard. The Papal States are not playable? France, it was a large colonial power, so I still think that it should have colonial wonders. I didn't know that the Portuguese consentrated more in tiny Macau, Timur, and Goa, than in Brazil. Again, the UHV should be hard for France. I don't think that colonial wonders are a bad idea, I think that they are great.
Venice 803
1. Control the Adriatic, Peloponnese, Crete, and Crimea by 1500.
2. Build 5 colonial projects.
3. Be the first to have the whole map reveled.
For the Byzantines, the UHV should be hard. The Papal States are not playable? France, it was a large colonial power, so I still think that it should have colonial wonders. I didn't know that the Portuguese consentrated more in tiny Macau, Timur, and Goa, than in Brazil. Again, the UHV should be hard for France. I don't think that colonial wonders are a bad idea, I think that they are great.
Venice 803
1. Control the Adriatic, Peloponnese, Crete, and Crimea by 1500.
2. Build 5 colonial projects.
3. Be the first to have the whole map reveled.
st.lucifer
King
I'm going off memory here, but the religions we had agreed upon were Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Protestantism, and Judaism. Judaism would be handled differently from the others - see earlier threads for details there.
We had discussed putting in minor religions (Calvinism, Anglicanism, some of the more widespread heresies) or a Celtic religion, but decided that none of them fit very well.
I don't have a problem with landlocked civs being unable to build colonization projects, and I agree that the naval requirement is a good and important one - I never build ships in RFC unless I absolutely have to, even if/when they're cheap. Besides, we really don't have many landlocked civs - Austria, Hungary, and potentially Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, and Poland. None of those were colonial powers (Russia could technically be considered one, but its colonies were mostly in its own modern territory), and for good reason.
For corporations, what Disenfrancised said is accurate. I think the most popular options for the last two slots were the Jesuits and the Hospitallers; although I'd argued for more monastic orders, we couldn't really come up with roles for most of the others.
The colonies/projects issue is going to take a lot of thought, and we might want to approach it when we've got the tech tree more clearly hammered out. I like Disenfrancised's list, but obviously we're going to have to pare it down a bit.
On ijnavy's UHV list - I agree with most of Disenfrancised's criticisms. I'm wary of tying too many civs' UHVs into projects and colonies; as there are going to be a lot of them, they may not face any serious competiton for a particular colony.
I think that a kremlin would be a good UB for Russia as well - a sort of enhanced city walls or castle (75% defense, units heal 10% extra/turn?). This allows us to do away with the General Winter UP while still reflecting how hard invading Russia is.
More thoughts later.
We had discussed putting in minor religions (Calvinism, Anglicanism, some of the more widespread heresies) or a Celtic religion, but decided that none of them fit very well.
I don't have a problem with landlocked civs being unable to build colonization projects, and I agree that the naval requirement is a good and important one - I never build ships in RFC unless I absolutely have to, even if/when they're cheap. Besides, we really don't have many landlocked civs - Austria, Hungary, and potentially Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, and Poland. None of those were colonial powers (Russia could technically be considered one, but its colonies were mostly in its own modern territory), and for good reason.
For corporations, what Disenfrancised said is accurate. I think the most popular options for the last two slots were the Jesuits and the Hospitallers; although I'd argued for more monastic orders, we couldn't really come up with roles for most of the others.
The colonies/projects issue is going to take a lot of thought, and we might want to approach it when we've got the tech tree more clearly hammered out. I like Disenfrancised's list, but obviously we're going to have to pare it down a bit.
On ijnavy's UHV list - I agree with most of Disenfrancised's criticisms. I'm wary of tying too many civs' UHVs into projects and colonies; as there are going to be a lot of them, they may not face any serious competiton for a particular colony.
I think that a kremlin would be a good UB for Russia as well - a sort of enhanced city walls or castle (75% defense, units heal 10% extra/turn?). This allows us to do away with the General Winter UP while still reflecting how hard invading Russia is.
More thoughts later.
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