Rhye's of Europe Technology Tree Discussion Thread

[Barak]

Just to clear up one small misconception. Line infantry in our mod does not mean rifled muskets in the post-Napoleonic sense. I see them as regular infantry equiped with smoothbore muskets circa 1760s (Seven Years War) with a lot less range and accuracy than rifles. So overlapping them with pikes and even earlier weapons isn't unreasonable. As st. lucifer says, lots of armies in the 17th. to 18th.Cs relied on masses of peasants armed with pikes, pole axes, billhooks, scythes or even clubs.

oh, then why do they have such a high strength rating? 16 seems awfully strong. That makes them twice as strong as macemen. In relation to regular Civ, they are more powerful than Riflemen.

 

[st.lucifer]

oh, then why do they have such a high strength rating? 16 seems awfully strong. That makes them twice as strong as macemen. In relation to regular Civ, they are more powerful than Riflemen.

I'm fine with the scaling as it currently is. A regiment of infantry in formation, even with smoothbore muskets, should have pretty good odds against a regiment of guys with clubs/maces/swords.

 

[Barak]

Remember of course that plate armor was designed to stop musket balls. By the time that rifled muskets began to be used, the accuracy and power of the minie ball caused armor to no longer be used.

Otherwise, the soldier with a ball in his shoulder or arm would dismember the musket man while he was reloading. Of course in the mid to late 18th century warfare started with lines of musket men shooting from massed formation. After a few volleys, there would be a charge where the soldiers would use their bayonets and the officers would use their cavalry swords.

 

[Whitefire]

Here's my reasoning, so you can argue that instead of just the techs .

There are 3 (maybe 4) technology branches in Vanilla Civ/RFC: Military, Religious, Other (Other being worker techs, civic techs (Communism, Biology, Democracy), building tech, and "delayers" (Military Science). There is a rough balance between the three branches, with Military being the arguable strongest. Arguable because you might have Modern Tanks, but can't even build Markets to grow your economy. Thus making you unable to be conquered or conquer.

So, I went off of the existing tech tree in the Dec. 9th build, and re-arranged a few items. Also, I am re-proposing a few resources as "stop gaps". Remember, the goal is to increase the variety of units, techs and the lifespan of existing units. Also, we have a few holes to fill, like a good city attacker (man-at-arms) for the mid and late game, which will be addressed after the early re-work.

This tech tree ends at the column of techs headed by Lateen Sails (blast furnace, civil service, etc.)

Theology becomes Christianity. Great Schism added as an unresearchable starting tech for the Byzantines to found Orthodox. Philosophy and Theology went hand-in-hand during the Medieval period, so I prefer Theology as a pre-req for whatever tech allows the rise of Protestantism, since the increase of rational thought lead to challenges of religious dogma. If Christianity is too specific, then it can be renamed to something more generic like, "Place of Worship Construction".

Art renamed to Byzantine Art for theme.

Aristocracy added to space out Chivalry, giving Heavy and Light Cavalry units and UUs more time to be effective. Could be a good place to stick a wonder or civic.

I am still insisting on adding the Carolingian Renaissance. It was the first major step from the dark ages to the Medieval period. Scholars came together, made advances in written communication, art, music, etc. and eventually diseminated to the various monasteries in the region. In a large sense, without Charlemagne, the increase of knowledge in the monasteries of his empires never would have happened.

Astrolabe and Map Making swapped. Map Making renamed to Cartography. This is to reflect the increased accuracy of map making that came with the Astrolabe. Also, I added the ability to trade along the coast and trade maps with Cartography. It's odd to be able to trade maps once you have better sails instead of when you learn how to make maps.

Paper added. Can't have Literature without it.

Added Artesian Wells to address health issues.

Spinning Wheel added. It now reveals Sheep/Wool

Fermentation added, now reveals Wine and Barley?(I can live with Barley starting already revealed)

In total, I have added 9 techs. Of which 4 are dead-ends. Most of the dead-ends are for non-essential bonuses.

Military Overhaul

New resource needs to be added: Tin

Tin and Copper are now pre-requisites for the early units Axemen, Spearmen and Mounted Infantry.

Bronze Casting - To introduce the idea of using pre-made dies to mass produce weapons.

Chainmail - Another tech to space out the jump from starting units and the mid-game units. Also, several unit types (bowmen specifically, but also pike units and horse units) would rarely, if ever, wear plate armor, so it's a bit more accurate as a pre-req.

Warrior renamed to Peasant. Upgrade path is now Page (with Feudalism) and Mounted Squire (with Chivalry). Squires and pages cannot be built and Peasants become obsolete at Vassalage. Squires and Pages give bonuses to Heavy Cavalry and Knight units (to be determined). They do not upgrade to Gunpowder units.

New Units:

Peasant: 2 1

Page: 4 1

Mounted Squire: 5 2 +25% vs. Archers

 

[Verily]

Fermentation would be highly inappropriate to have in the tech tree. Germanic peoples had been brewing hops for centuries before the fall of Rome, and knowledge of grape fermentation was continuous through the end of the Roman Empire into the medieval period.

On the same vein, while a Spinning Wheel tech might be appropriate to unlock additional benefit from sheep, perhaps some extra commerce, sheep were domesticated and kept for both food and wool long, long before the spinning wheel reached Europe (c. 1300 CE) or the Middle East (c. 1050).

 

[Whitefire]

Fermentation can be replaced ith Selective Harvesting or Winemaking or Advanced Brewing Texhniques to reflect the interest in fine wines and beer with hops. And, btw, Hops may have been used, but it was rarely used successfully (in the sense of being consistently tasty) until the Medieval Era.

The Spinning Wheel tech comes late enough in the tree that it will be researched around 1100AD by many civs. And once again, it's used to represent a leap in production that makes the resultant products a "luxury".

 

[Verily]

Fermentation can be replaced ith Selective Harvesting or Winemaking or Advanced Brewing Texhniques to reflect the interest in fine wines and beer with hops. And, btw, Hops may have been used, but it was rarely used successfully (in the sense of being consistently tasty) until the Medieval Era.

You're really reaching here. Wine and beer were widespread for the entire period. There was no particular point at which they became more prominent, more luxurious, or more "delicious". The evolution of wine regions in France, for example, began in about the twelfth century with monasteries cultivating their own grapes, but there still were no really distinct wine regions until the 17th and 18th centuries, and the process was not marked by any major inventions or leaps forward.

"Advanced Brewing Techniques" would be a farce.

The Spinning Wheel tech comes late enough in the tree that it will be researched around 1100AD by many civs. And once again, it's used to represent a leap in production that makes the resultant products a "luxury".

But sheep aren't a luxury in the game; they're a food resource. Moreover, wool was never a luxury in the sense of being a luxury good. It was exported, but it was always the stock clothing, the sort of thing worn by everyone. Those who wanted better wore linen, cotton or silk.

 

[jessiecat]

No fundamental disagreement with these as opening paths to the tech tree. I dispute whether literature needs paper or not as monks wrote on skins, vellum etc. long before paper was introduced from China. But leaving that aside for the moment my main question is this.

You've not indicated where the entry point for Arabia should be. Dropping Theology in favour of Chritianity gives them no religious tech starting point unless we make it as Monasticism. In fact the whole Christianity > Schism >
Byzantine Art > Carolingian Renaissance thread is irrelevent to them.

For any kind of historical realism, Arabia needs a big tech advantage in the beginning and they will need access to Arabic knowledge and Arabic science pretty early on, without going through Guilds, Banking etc.I think that should be available to them right after Monasticism.

Therefore my starting point for Arabia in 650 AD is this.
They need to start with:
Calendar
Architecture
Bronze Casting
Vaulted Arches
Aristocracy

They will not require;
Christianity
Great Schism
Byzantine Art
Carolingian Renaissance

The can then research;
Manorialism
Stirrups
Engineering
Monasticism (leads to Arabic Knowledge)
Artesian Wells
Fermentation
Music
Vaulted Arches
Code of Laws
Literature
Spinning Wheel

In 700AD the Cordobans will start as the Arabs plus
Fermentation
Code of Laws

What do you of this then?

 

[st.lucifer]

But sheep aren't a luxury in the game; they're a food resource. Moreover, wool was never a luxury in the sense of being a luxury good. It was exported, but it was always the stock clothing, the sort of thing worn by everyone. Those who wanted better wore linen, cotton or silk.

We've switched sheep into the luxury column to represent cloth. A long time back, when we were debating this, I proposed having a flax resource found in marshy areas to represent linen, but the idea was rejected as making a commonplace (and not location-specific) item into an unneeded luxury. If I understand correctly, this is your argument against wool as a luxury, and it makes sense.

Here's the question - are cotton (only a few available on the map) and silk (same issue) representative enough? Do we need a flax/linen resource?

I have no issue moving sheep back into the food column, but I felt like we had enough health available early in the game (although the base value has changed a bit), and luxuries were hard to come by. If we want to rethink it, that's fine with me.

 

[Whitefire]

You're really reaching here. Wine and beer were widespread for the entire period. There was no particular point at which they became more prominent, more luxurious, or more "delicious".

Good, then we can declare them as such whenever we feel like it. Realistically, certain Monasteries were regarded as better than others as far as alcohol production was concerned. Thus, a need to reflect that. I guess we won't reconcile on this point.

But sheep aren't a luxury in the game

Unless something changed in the last update, they are.

 

[jessiecat]

We've switched sheep into the luxury column to represent cloth. A long time back, when we were debating this, I proposed having a flax resource found in marshy areas to represent linen, but the idea was rejected as making a commonplace (and not location-specific) item into an unneeded luxury. If I understand correctly, this is your argument against wool as a luxury, and it makes sense.

Here's the question - are cotton (only a few available on the map) and silk (same issue) representative enough? Do we need a flax/linen resource?

I have no issue moving sheep back into the food column, but I felt like we had enough health available early in the game (although the base value has changed a bit), and luxuries were hard to come by. If we want to rethink it, that's fine with me.

The decision to change sheep from a food item to a trade good was correct in my view. I have no problem having a flax resource as well as both were important in cloth manufacture. But as we discussed before, the wool industry was hugely important in Britain, the Low Countries, France and Italy throughout the Middle Ages. In fact, in England and Holland it was at times the single most profitable trade item, amounting to up to a quarter of all annual trade income. To ignore the wool trade in this period would be as foolish as ignoring the tea or tobacco trade in later centuries IMO.

 

[Whitefire]

You've not indicated where the entry point for Arabia should be. Dropping Theology in favour of Chritianity gives them no religious tech starting point unless we make it as Monasticism. In fact the whole Christianity > Schism >
Byzantine Art > Carolingian Renaissance thread is irrelevent to them.

Like I said, we can change Christianity to some more generic name than Theology. Also, adding in another, unresearchable tech for the Arabs to found Islam is easy enough. Call it "The Qur’an" or something.

Also addressing your later concern: I really don't care too much about Arabia. We have 2 Islamic civs, with the Ottomans being a late third. Every other civ is European and derived primarily from either Byzantine or Carolingian influence. Heck, the Mongols had more impact on the civs in question than the Arabs.

So, the problem at hand (addressing early Arab technological superiority) can be done in 3 ways.


1) Create an insanely generic tech tree.
2) Forget the Islamic nations, make a more European-centric tree and find a way to include the Islamic nations (my preferred method).
3) Create an entirely separate tree for the Islamic nations (Doable, would be great as far as theme is concerned, but lots of work).

Trust me, I did put thought toward making it a more inclusive tree, but at the end of the day this is the Rise and Fall of Europe, not the Mediterranean, or the Greater European-Near East Region.

This is not entirely my call, but I haven't been able to find a way to reconcile the technological disparity, so abandoning one or separating them entirely is the best way, IMO.

For any kind of historical realism, Arabia needs a big tech advantage in the beginning and they will need access to Arabic knowledge and Arabic science pretty early on, without going through Guilds, Banking etc.I think that should be available to them right after Monasticism.

Therefore my starting point for Arabia in 650 AD is this.
They need to start with:
Calendar
Architecture
Bronze Casting
Vaulted Arches
Aristocracy

They will not require;
Christianity
Great Schism
Byzantine Art
Carolingian Renaissance

The can then research;
Manorialism
Stirrups
Engineering
Monasticism (leads to Arabic Knowledge)
Artesian Wells
Fermentation
Music
Vaulted Arches
Code of Laws
Literature
Spinning Wheel

In 700AD the Cordobans will start as the Arabs plus
Fermentation
Code of Laws

What do you of this then?

How about this: Give them "The Qur’an", have it allow Islamic Art, which leads to Arabic Knowledge. Since they can't research Great Schism or Christianity, they can't get Byzantine Art or Carolingian Renaissance. Make the Pre-reqs for Monasticism, "Christianity OR The Qur’an".

 

[Whitefire]

We've switched sheep into the luxury column to represent cloth. A long time back, when we were debating this, I proposed having a flax resource found in marshy areas to represent linen, but the idea was rejected as making a commonplace (and not location-specific) item into an unneeded luxury. If I understand correctly, this is your argument against wool as a luxury, and it makes sense.

Here's the question - are cotton (only a few available on the map) and silk (same issue) representative enough? Do we need a flax/linen resource?

I have no issue moving sheep back into the food column, but I felt like we had enough health available early in the game (although the base value has changed a bit), and luxuries were hard to come by. If we want to rethink it, that's fine with me.

I agree with Jessie, Wool should stay as a trade resource. Cotton is mostly a Near East crop. AFAIK, the weather of Europe was just too harsh for Cotton to be successfully grown. Flax is possible.

 

[jessiecat]

Also addressing your later concern: I really don't care too much about Arabia. We have 2 Islamic civs, with the Ottomans being a late third. Every other civ is European and derived primarily from either Byzantine or Carolingian influence. Heck, the Mongols had more impact on the civs in question than the Arabs.

So, the problem at hand (addressing early Arab technological superiority) can be done in 3 ways.


1) Create an insanely generic tech tree.
2) Forget the Islamic nations, make a more European-centric tree and find a way to include the Islamic nations (my preferred method).
3) Create an entirely separate tree for the Islamic nations (Doable, would be great as far as theme is concerned, but lots of work).

Trust me, I did put thought toward making it a more inclusive tree, but at the end of the day this is the Rise and Fall of Europe, not the Mediterranean, or the Greater European-Near East Region.

This is not entirely my call, but I haven't been able to find a way to reconcile the technological disparity, so abandoning one or separating them entirely is the best way, IMO.



How about this: Give them "The Qur’an", have it allow Islamic Art, which leads to Arabic Knowledge. Since they can't research Great Schism or Christianity, they can't get Byzantine Art or Carolingian Renaissance. Make the Pre-reqs for Monasticism, "Christianity OR The Qur’an".

We have been working on this for over a year now and have come to a pretty wide consensus on the need to depict the historical importance of Islam on Europe esp. in learning, science, maths, medicine, technology etc. and you can dismiss it all with a couple of throwaway lines that do nothing but reveal your euro-centric narrow-mindedness and lack of understanding of European history. Fortunately you'll find very few people on this project who share your view. Your contributions remain valuable and very welcome. But in the end, as you say, "It isn't entirely your call", is it?

EDIT The above post was not intended as a personal attack but as a sharp difference of opinion.
We may disagree but there's no need to insult you. Truce, I hope.:

 

[Whitefire]

We have been working on this for over a year now and have come to a pretty wide consensus on the need to depict the historical importance of Islam on Europe esp. in learning, science, maths, medicine, technology etc. and you can dismiss it all with a couple of throwaway lines that do nothing but reveal your euro-centric narrow-mindedness and lack of understanding of European history. Fortunately you'll find very few people on this project who share your view. Your contributions remain valuable and very welcome. But in the end, as you say, "It isn't entirely your call", is it?

Well, I didn't include a drop-in point like Christianity or The Great Schism because you already have one for the Arabs later on with the tree. I didn't want to futz with something that you already dealt with. Also, I don't see a large Arab influence in the existing tree (regarding theme, not actual advancement).

That said, if you want to, we can do something akin to Europa Europa. I don't know if he did invisible pre-reqs, but I think what we can do is place a line of code on top of the tech tree XML that is akin to: "If n-nvx, then tech tree 1; if p-pvx then tech tree two" where N and P represent the team numbers of Christian and Arabic nations, respectively.

Then, we can build an early tech tree for the Arabs (say 30 techs) and equate it in beaker value to a beginning chunk of Christian techs. I think we can all agree that after about 1200 there arose a close technological parity, so we can just dump the same tree after that. If you want to think about theme, you can change the text for the late techs to something more Arabic and leave the effects intact. Which is easy for anyone to do since you just type in Word, spell check, then copy paste into the appropriate spot.

But, like I said, lots of work.

 

[jessiecat]

Well, I didn't include a drop-in point like Christianity or The Great Schism because you already have one for the Arabs later on with the tree. I didn't want to futz with something that you already dealt with. Also, I don't see a large Arab influence in the existing tree (regarding theme, not actual advancement).

That said, if you want to, we can do something akin to Europa Europa. I don't know if he did invisible pre-reqs, but I think what we can do is place a line of code on top of the tech tree XML that is akin to: "If n-nvx, then tech tree 1; if p-pvx then tech tree two" where N and P represent the team numbers of Christian and Arabic nations, respectively.

Then, we can build an early tech tree for the Arabs (say 30 techs) and equate it in beaker value to a beginning chunk of Christian techs. I think we can all agree that after about 1200 there arose a close technological parity, so we can just dump the same tree after that. If you want to think about theme, you can change the text for the late techs to something more Arabic and leave the effects intact. Which is easy for anyone to do since you just type in Word, spell check, then copy paste into the appropriate spot.

But, like I said, lots of work.

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't really thinking of another completely separate but parallel tech tree. More like a branch which is initiated by Theology where we have it now.
So for the Christians it would go: Theology>.Christianity>>Great Schism>> etc.

The Muslim branch could then proceed something like this.
Theology>>Islam>>Monasticism>>Classical Knowledge and proceed parallel to the Christian one until it reaches Arabic Knowledge>>Arabic Medicine and then rejoins the main tree.

I wouldn't think it was necessary to add too many unique techs to the Arab branch except maybe some early knowledge of Indian and Chinese technologies in addition to Classical ones. My thinking is that the early Arab advantages came both from access to classical Greek and Roman sources gained through contacts with Christian and Jewish scholars in the Middle east but also their contact with India and China. Both sources of knowledge were not available in Europe until the 12thC due to suppression of pagan learning by the Roman Church though less so by the Orthodox Church. Which explains the obvious tech lead the Byzantines have with the rest of Europe of course.

I think I can come up with something fairly simple which can easily fit in with the early tech changes you propose (which I do largely support). I'll work on that in the morning and get back to you with a proposal tomorrow.

 

[jessiecat]

OK. I've come up with a revised early tech tree incorporating Whitefire's suggestions plus a possible Arabic mini tech thread which I have confined to one tech branch only to make it a lot easier to implement.

................................................/Cartography>>>Optics>>>Shipbuilding\
Calendar>>>Astrology>>>Astrolabe\.....................................................\Astronomy
.................................................\Lateen Sails>>>Clock Making>>>>>>>/

Bronze Casting>>>Engineering>>>Machinery>>>Blast Furnaces>>>Plate Armour
..............................\.......................................\
...............................\>Chain Mail.................Steel Smelting
.....................................................(with Guilds -enables Heavy Swordsman 10/1)

Architecture>>>Artesian Wells (with Engineering)>>>Seige Engines (with Machinery)

......................................................../Spinning Wheel>>>Guilds\
Manorialism>>>Vassalage>>>Feudalism>>>\.................................\Paper>>>Arabic Knowledge
.........................................................\Code of Laws>>>Banking/

............................................./Carolingian Renaissance>>>>>Vaulted>>>>>Gothic
.................../Byzantine Art>>>/...........................................Arches.......Architecture
Theology>>>/.........................\The Great Schism
.................\
.................,\......................../>>>Music>>>Literature\
...................\Monasticism>>>/................................./Philosophy
..........................................\Classical Knowledge>>>/
...........................................................................\Education

................................................................................/Matchlock
Herbal Medicine>>>Fermentation>>>Alchemy>>>Gunpowder
................................................................................\Chemistry

Stirrups>>>>>>>>>Farriers>>>>>>>>>>Aristocracy>>>>>>>>>>Chivalry>>>>>>>>>Military Tactics
.....................(with Feudalism.............(with Chain Mail............(with Plate Armour
..................enables Light Cavalry).....enables Heavy Cavalry)..... enables Knights)

........................................................................................................................................

The Arabs, Cordobans and Ottomans would use the same tech tree as all the other civs with the exception of the Theology thread as follows:

.................................../Eastern Knowledge>>>Art>>>Music>>Literature/>>>Philosophy
................................../.........\......................................................\
Theology>>>Monasticism/...........\Steel Smelting....................................\>>>Education
.................................\........(with Blast Furnaces
..................................\... -enables Heavy Swordsman)
...................................\
....................................\>>>Classical >>>>>Arabic>>>>>Arabic Medicine>>>>Battlefield Medicine
........................................Knowledge......Knowledge
...............................................................\
................................................................\>>>Keyhole>>>>>Islamic>>>>>>>>>Advanced
......................................................................Arches.......Architecture..........Irrigation Methods
......................................................................(replaces Vaulted Arches
..........................................................................and Gothic Architecture)

Note This proposal also incorporates Whitefires idea of a strong attacking unit for the Late Middle Ages in introducing steel smelting and from it an enhanced Heavy Swordsman. This unit should be available a bit earlier for the Muslim civs because of their superior sword technology due to Damascus steel which was developed from earlier Indian steel smelting techniques. The Arab tech thread also acknowledges early Arab access to Greek and Roman Classical writings which led to later scientific advancements by Arabic scholars, particularly in Medicine which was not fully surpassed in Europe until the mid 19th.C. And advanced irrigation systems were developed much earlier by the Arabs, particularly in Andalusia, introducing a number of semi-tropical crops to Europe like coffee, tea, rice, dates, oranges, lemons, limes, apricots, pomegranates,aubergines, pineapples and melons.

 

[jessiecat]

I've also found some art that would be good for the European and Arabic versions of the Heavy Swordsman and for the Christian and Arabic versions of Whitefire's worker/peasant unit.

 

[Whitefire]

OK. I've come up with a revised early tech tree incorporating Whitefire's suggestions plus a possible Arabic mini tech thread which I have confined to one tech branch only to make it a lot easier to implement.

................................................/Cartography>>>Optics>>>Shipbuilding\
Calendar>>>Astrology>>>Astrolabe\.....................................................\Astronomy
.................................................\Lateen Sails>>>Clock Making>>>>>>>/

Bronze Casting>>>Engineering>>>Machinery>>>Blast Furnaces>>>Plate Armour
..............................\.......................................\
...............................\>Chain Mail.................Steel Smelting
.....................................................(with Guilds -enables Heavy Swordsman 10/1)

Architecture>>>Artesian Wells (with Engineering)>>>Seige Engines (with Machinery)

......................................................../Spinning Wheel>>>Guilds\
Manorialism>>>Vassalage>>>Feudalism>>>\.................................\Paper>>>Arabic Knowledge
.........................................................\Code of Laws>>>Banking/

............................................./Carolingian Renaissance>>>>>Vaulted>>>>>Gothic
.................../Byzantine Art>>>/...........................................Arches.......Architecture
Theology>>>/.........................\The Great Schism
.................\
.................,\......................../>>>Music>>>Literature\
...................\Monasticism>>>/................................./Philosophy
..........................................\Classical Knowledge>>>/
...........................................................................\Education

................................................................................/Matchlock
Herbal Medicine>>>Fermentation>>>Alchemy>>>Gunpowder
................................................................................\Chemistry

Stirrups>>>>>>>>>Farriers>>>>>>>>>>Aristocracy>>>>>>>>>>Chivalry>>>>>>>>>Military Tactics
.....................(with Feudalism.............(with Chain Mail............(with Plate Armour
..................enables Light Cavalry).....enables Heavy Cavalry)..... enables Knights)

........................................................................................................................................

The Arabs, Cordobans and Ottomans would use the same tech tree as all the other civs with the exception of the Theology thread as follows:

.................................../Eastern Knowledge>>>Art>>>Music>>Literature/>>>Philosophy
................................../.........\......................................................\
Theology>>>Monasticism/...........\Steel Smelting....................................\>>>Education
.................................\........(with Blast Furnaces
..................................\... -enables Heavy Swordsman)
...................................\
....................................\>>>Classical >>>>>Arabic>>>>>Arabic Medicine>>>>Battlefield Medicine
........................................Knowledge......Knowledge
...............................................................\
................................................................\>>>Keyhole>>>>>Islamic>>>>>>>>>Advanced
......................................................................Arches.......Architecture..........Irrigation Methods
......................................................................(replaces Vaulted Arches
..........................................................................and Gothic Architecture)

Astrology: No objection to adding it, but what purpose does it serve? We don't need any more spacing on the naval branch. It's was already well designed, I just moved map trading up to a more logically named tech.

Why did you move Classical Knowledge from after Literature to after Monasticism?

Is Herbal Medicine a starting tech now (no pre-req)?

Why is Feudalism a pre-req for Spinning Wheels instead of Machinery?

Why is Farriers a pre-req for Aristocracy? Feudalism seems more logical.

I like the addition of steel.

By Keyhole I assume you mean Keystone.

Why do the Arabs get Battlefield Medicine and Advanced Irrigation Methods?

You missed the idea behind the Great Schism/Christianity/Qua'ran. I'll try to finish a revamp of the tree so you can install it and see what I mean.

 

[3Miro]

Are you guys rewriting the tech tree?

Different tech branches are kind I think. We can simply make it more generic. Christianity should not be a tech (at least not in the a mod starting 500AD). The Great Schism's official date is in 11th century, why would Byzantines start with it? We could try to represent a unified Christin world until around 10-11 century, but even then Byzantines and the Pope were not in best of terms for centuries earlier. I actually think the current model for the religions and techs is OK.

Swap techs if needed, add techs, but I don't see the need for completely different tech trees for Islamic and European civs. Were those two fundamentally that different? I think they both had pretty similar concepts (holy war = crusade/jihad, religious prosecutions (stronger for the Christians), and so on), just put general conceptual name on the tech tree. (BTW the change in the tech tree is more than XML issue, it would require significant C++ coding, which I will not be able to do until some time in January).