Rhyes of Europe?

[Kalimakhus]

These are some thoughts for discussion and comments

Events

Events system is quite a powerful tool. We can control how they get triggered and we can limit the course of actions available in response to them by the choices offered to the player (including the AI). They can then work as a means to challenge players with the real historic events. So the player would have the choice of doing the same as history tells or otherwise try to change history.

Events as well can simulate the world outside Europe as they can bring tidings of important events elsewhere. Some might be just for cosmetic purposes as to enrich the historic scene. But others can offer choices that can change the course of the game.

Some events can be triggered simply by their actual dates. Others would be triggered by game happenings. The capture of a specific city, the destruction of a civ, the selection of some civ of a specific civic (I mean that this can be a trigger for an event for another civ – think of adopting Theology by one civ).


Religion

Religion was a very important factor in these times. The new preferred religion for leaders is surly a suitable addition in BTS. We can emphasize it more.

Establishing religions by discovering a tech doesn’t seem suitable IMO. Some civs shoud start with specific religions. Emerging religions can be born as a result of some event. We will start with Catholicism, Druidism (the name I prefer for Celtic beliefs), Paganism, and Judaism already there. Eastern Orthodoxy should emerge later splitting out of Catholicism. Islam will emerge with the spawning of the Caliphate. Protestantism can emerge quite late and split out of Catholicism and causing much unrest all over Europe.

The challenge with religion would be in choosing to adopt a specific one in the first place. Choosing between making your populace unhappy or making other civs unhappy.

Next will come the challenge of defending the faith. Again either you ignore the persecution of (our brothers and sisters in the faith), thus getting your populace quite unhappy and jeopardizing your stability, or otherwise you might even need to declare war. This would be a holy war that can have less to no war weariness. Holy wars may even add to stability making them quite a preferred choice at times. (Let’s spice this game up).

Third challenge with religion is keeping it pure and purging heresies and other religions. Heresies can emerge as events that require you to spend money and train inquisitors with some unhappiness as side effect. They can be limited to one city or so. For other established religions it would be a sort of war. Special missionaries can ignore closed borders and can be stealth (not visible) and they would spread their religion to your cities if you are not aware. The rise of non-state religion percentage in your realm would lower your stability. Your true believing people will become unhappy and you will lose favor with his holiness the Pop (of course if you are Catholic).

Fourth challenge is working on spreading the true faith. I mentioned special missionaries. They may also have the ability to raise a religious rebellion in a rival’s city. Incidents of this type would be remembered and add to negative relations. Something like (you have worked on spreading you heathen religion into our lands), and (you tried to lure our loyal subjects into rebellion). This is of course when your missionaries get caught.

 

[Whitefire]

I may be mistaken but at one point did'nt the islamic caliphate split leaving muslims in spain and the north africa region as a seperate political power from the middle east?

Yes. However, I'm thinking within the limitations of the mod.

Forgive my stupidity, but whatever you said about Austria can be said about HRE. Give me a name of an HRE emperor who was just that, or who didn’t use the title to serve his own throne.

Still different. It wasn't until later in their history that the title was reduced to a laughing stock. Even then, the HRE was a mildly relevant force, unlike Austria which was tied to the Habsburgs, among others. Besides, what will fill the space in Germany? Definitely not independents, they'll just be eaten alive by neighboring civs. Then you have a completely ahistorical scenario without the German states. Austria can be given to Spain or France with little consequence, unless we want to try and make them a playable civ.

How about a compromise and add in, "Haus Habsburg-Lothringen" to represent the HRE AND Austria?

About the Lutherans, in the thirty years war Sweden was the defender of them.

My bad on that one. They had officially entered in on the Catholic side.

About the Ottomans, they can’t be a morph of the Caliphate. They are more a usurper of the title. The Caliphate, actually was destroyed by the Mongols in the thirteenth century. They can spawn on their own and conquer the middle-east

Yes they can. I can rewrite history!

 

[Whitefire]

Events

I wouldn't even think about it yet. We need to focus on getting some kind of engine running before scripting anything. And besides, you'll want to wait and see my events before going too crazy .

Religion

Religion was a very important factor in these times. The new preferred religion for leaders is surly a suitable addition in BTS. We can emphasize it more.

Establishing religions by discovering a tech doesn’t seem suitable IMO. Some civs shoud start with specific religions. Emerging religions can be born as a result of some event. We will start with Catholicism, Druidism (the name I prefer for Celtic beliefs), Paganism, and Judaism already there. Eastern Orthodoxy should emerge later splitting out of Catholicism. Islam will emerge with the spawning of the Caliphate. Protestantism can emerge quite late and split out of Catholicism and causing much unrest all over Europe.

The challenge with religion would be in choosing to adopt a specific one in the first place. Choosing between making your populace unhappy or making other civs unhappy.

Next will come the challenge of defending the faith. Again either you ignore the persecution of (our brothers and sisters in the faith), thus getting your populace quite unhappy and jeopardizing your stability, or otherwise you might even need to declare war. This would be a holy war that can have less to no war weariness. Holy wars may even add to stability making them quite a preferred choice at times. (Let’s spice this game up).

Third challenge with religion is keeping it pure and purging heresies and other religions. Heresies can emerge as events that require you to spend money and train inquisitors with some unhappiness as side effect. They can be limited to one city or so. For other established religions it would be a sort of war. Special missionaries can ignore closed borders and can be stealth (not visible) and they would spread their religion to your cities if you are not aware. The rise of non-state religion percentage in your realm would lower your stability. Your true believing people will become unhappy and you will lose favor with his holiness the Pop (of course if you are Catholic).

Fourth challenge is working on spreading the true faith. I mentioned special missionaries. They may also have the ability to raise a religious rebellion in a rival’s city. Incidents of this type would be remembered and add to negative relations. Something like (you have worked on spreading you heathen religion into our lands), and (you tried to lure our loyal subjects into rebellion). This is of course when your missionaries get caught.

I agree that religions can not be discovered. We'll have Protestantism start in Germany, then spread naturally. It'll have an obscene spread rate, like 150. This will make it interesting for inquisitorial nations.

Just for fun, you might want to check out Charlemagne. I've been working on fleshing out that mod (now it seems I'll never finish it) and it's favor system would be interesting to adopt. Especially the title of Holy Roman Emperor. We can give that title it's own unique power (Like base stability is never lower than -20) in order to make it worthwhile. Although, that should be last on the development list.

Check out the AP functions when you have some free time. I want to change it from, "vote on resolution" to, "Vatican issues bulls". That way, you can have a crazy AI telling the Catholic nations what to do, or be a crazy player and hold sway over the entire Christian world. /me cackles.

 

[ltccone]

Yes they can. I can rewrite history!

Has everyone forgotten about the Seljuq Turks. They ruled most of the Middle East for 300 years and held the Abbasid Caliphate as a vassal. They were, after all, the "target" of the Crusades.

Saladin, though a Kurd, revived much of the Seljuq Turk Empire which had been fractured. They went into decline after Saladin's death (the Mameluks took power in Egypt; the Mongols destroyed Baghdad).

The Mameluks were interesting themselves. They were able to defeat and drive back the Mongols. They were conquered by the Ottomans in the 16th Century.

Also how will the Timurids by factored in? They almost destroyed the Ottoman Empire in the early 15th century.

ltccone

 

[Hitti-Litti]

^^

Actually Mameluks just made a counter-attack when Mongol leader of Middle East rode to Mongolia to participate into election of leader. So without the best of best Mongolian horsemen Mameluks could beat Mongol army.

 

[ltccone]

^^

Actually Mameluks just made a counter-attack when Mongol leader of Middle East rode to Mongolia to participate into election of leader. So without the best of best Mongolian horsemen Mameluks could beat Mongol army.

True; they weren't facing the "first string," but the defeat of ANY Mongol army was an accomplishment.

ltccone

 

[Kalimakhus]

@Whitefire

We can have the German states as minor civs that become vassals to whoever is elected to the title of HRE. This will be accurate historically. Also it will prevent other powers from eating these states for breakfast. It will also give the one who gets the title some troubles besides the benefits. Something that again will be historically accurate.

We can modify the code so minor civs won’t start in war state with everybody. We can then control their interactions with other civs through events.

I’ve tried Charlemagne, and I actually liked the system of papal favor. I just didn’t like that the focus of the scenario is so limited as well as the map. The static LHs are quite nice. I actually like static LHs in general. They are nice in EMA, very good in Total Realism, and absolutely stunning in FfH2.

 

[Kalimakhus]

@Itccone

I haven’t definitely forgotten about the Seljuqs. I am sure I have actually mentioned them somewhere.

I agree with you that they were an important power in the middle-east. They posed quite a threat to Byzantine Empire, especially after Manzikert (spelling?). Their capture of Jerusalem (out of Fatimids’ hands) is the actual sparkle for the first crusade.

Now this can be a morph for the Caliphate. A revival of Islamic power and threat to Byzantines. They were protectors of the Caliphate and controlled every aspect of its politics. So the Caliphate wasn’t their vassal but was actually ruled by them.

 

[Kalimakhus]

Now some thoughts inspired by the Dynamic Civ Names Mod:

Why not dynamic leaders’ names? And Traits as well. Now dynamic traits have been already implemented in FfH. Leaders’ names are as simple to change as civs’ names. The core concept is all about changing the text displayed for the name in both cases.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have historical leaders take control of civs one after the other? You will have the fun and challenge of playing with several traits combos throughout the game. (Anybody thought of negative traits?).
The code itself would deal with one leader, e.g. Franks’ leader, the text referenced however will change.

 

[Whitefire]

Has everyone forgotten about the Seljuq Turks. They ruled most of the Middle East for 300 years and held the Abbasid Caliphate as a vassal. They were, after all, the "target" of the Crusades.

Saladin, though a Kurd, revived much of the Seljuq Turk Empire which had been fractured. They went into decline after Saladin's death (the Mameluks took power in Egypt; the Mongols destroyed Baghdad).

The Mameluks were interesting themselves. They were able to defeat and drive back the Mongols. They were conquered by the Ottomans in the 16th Century.

Also how will the Timurids by factored in? They almost destroyed the Ottoman Empire in the early 15th century.

ltccone

^^

Actually Mameluks just made a counter-attack when Mongol leader of Middle East rode to Mongolia to participate into election of leader. So without the best of best Mongolian horsemen Mameluks could beat Mongol army.

I am well aware of this, however, this scenario is called the Rise of Europe. From the European commoner's perspective, there were Arabs and they wanted to kill you. So, from the European perspective, having a single Arab state would, in fact, be completely historical. I'll concede that the Ottomans need to be added, how ever the other Arab governments will be labeled either as the Caliphate or the Ottomans. Sorry, but I'd rather add in a Burgundy or a Lombardy before the Umayyads or Aghlabids.

 

[Whitefire]

Why not dynamic leaders’ names? And Traits as well. Now dynamic traits have been already implemented in FfH. Leaders’ names are as simple to change as civs’ names. The core concept is all about changing the text displayed for the name in both cases.

Rhye has already implemented dynamic leaders =P. And I am throughly opposed to dynamic UPs in this scenario. However, for the full historical mod (3000 BC-2050AD) it would be interesting to see if we can incorporate dynamic UPs and dynamics UHVs.

 

[Zimzollazim]

Maybe instead of the leader changing along with history, possibly every 10 to 50 years, why not instead just have a few dynamic leaders throught the whole game marking important political shifts instead of every new monach that comes along.

 

[Mowque]

(how do we get to the wiki?)

anyway, which map are we using?

 

[Whitefire]

http://wikirhye.wikidot.com/rhyes-of-europe

Dunno about the map yet.

 

[Mowque]

okay, thanks. added to favorites, i assume we can still add any ideas at this point?

 

[Whitefire]

Yes. but try to keep it to points 1 and 2 in the outline. We want to get the civs created and added before worrying about events and whatnot.

 

[Whitefire]

Some tech additions.

Alchemy
Steel
Classical Heritage
Siege Weaponry
Aristocracy
Chain Armour
Military Logistics
Romanesque Art
Renaissance Classicism
Astrology
Roman Logistics
Carolingian Renaissance
Monasticism
Jurisprudence
Empiricism
Scientific Method
Chivalric Order
Martial Competition
Sapping
Strategikon
Crossbow
Longbow
The Four Humours
Pilgrimage->missionaries
Fanaticism -> Inquisitors
Minnesang->Minstrel (culture bomb unit)
Steel-tipped Plows: +1 food for farms, +50% serf speed.
Milling: +1 Food, +1 Commerce for Windmills and Watermills.
New World -> Opens up colonies

Post some more techs in the wiki!

 

[ltccone]

@Itccone

I haven’t definitely forgotten about the Seljuqs. I am sure I have actually mentioned them somewhere.

I agree with you that they were an important power in the middle-east. They posed quite a threat to Byzantine Empire, especially after Manzikert (spelling?). Their capture of Jerusalem (out of Fatimids’ hands) is the actual sparkle for the first crusade.

Now this can be a morph for the Caliphate. A revival of Islamic power and threat to Byzantines. They were protectors of the Caliphate and controlled every aspect of its politics. So the Caliphate wasn’t their vassal but was actually ruled by them.

A morph is a great idea. It could be the catalyst for the Crusades just as it actually happened.

ltccone

 

[ltccone]

These two organizations played a huge role in Europe, espsecially the Templers.

Is is possible for them to be formed from an event (like the fall of Jerusalem to the Crusaders) or would we have to rely on a tech?

ltccone

 

[Kalimakhus]

Maybe instead of the leader changing along with history, possibly every 10 to 50 years, why not instead just have a few dynamic leaders throught the whole game marking important political shifts instead of every new monach that comes along.

When I mentioned dynamic leaders I didn’t mean every single leader for each civ. I actually meant something more like what you mentioned here. There are so many obscure leaders who no one might recognize. Some ruled for a quite brief time. It would be good to have the main leaders who made shifts in their nation’s history. Usually these leaders established dynasties or consolidated their dynasties’ grip on thrones. This way dynamic leaders would also coincide with changes in civ names, Merovingian Franks would change to Carolingian Franks with the ascendance of Charlemagne to throne (he didn’t establish his dynasty but sure he is the main figure of it).