Riflemen turn 104 with new patch

[Tabarnak]

I managed to get riflemen on turn 104 on a continent map with new patch. Actually this is my best score date on multiplayer (with Egypt). How?

1-Great Library
2-Oracle
3-Porcelain Tower
4 -Took 2 great scientists to jump to Rifles

I built 4 cities on a south part of a continent map with Siam on north. Built 4 libraries and National college as well. Siam declared war on me with 4 horsemen, 2 swords and 2 pikemen while i had no iron and horses. Yes nothing at all.

I had 2 pikemen, 1 archer and 3 warriors and i won with help of all 4 buffs enabled. My warriors where stronger than his swords

Edit : He attacked a city with 2 horses and only took half of city's health. My pikeman eat the full strengh one and another injured. My pikeman lost only 2 or 3 HP!! Well he learned something about horsemen vs cities. These units suck at taking cities. Even more if pikemen(or spearmen) are around. Get Askia's UU or do nothing at all against cities with horses unless you really know what to do.

I tought it would not be possible to get early riflemen with new patch but it doesnt seem to. You need a lot of hammer and bit of luck start position to do this.

National college is THE building to go through the tech tree faster. If you manage to build the 2 wonders which give free scientists points as well, its possible to get powerful units very soon. On pangea map i assume this is more difficult to do.

50% food with Tradition is a nice policy for long term hammers capital whore. I built Porcelain Tower in 9 turns.

Again, it all depends of your starting location. But one thing is sure right now...You need to ''play'' the map more than ever with this new patch, which is a very good thing.

Any toughts about new patch in multi?

 

[swordspider]

I managed to get riflemen on turn 104 on a continent map with new patch. Actually this is my best score date on multiplayer (with Egypt). How?

I guess I don't understand the rifleman rush fully, Tab. Uigaw used to like to race it too (I think turn 82 was his best before the patch, can't do that anymore). But here is my 'tactical' analysis/question... and I'd like to hear your reasoning. Of course, if you are just doing it to see how fast you can do it in, then this is likely null, but if you are doing it for an advantage, I'm curious your unit setup/etc.

My first concern is are you giving up too much b-lining for rifles? Clearly you are focused on the bottom tier of the tech tree having to skip a lot of important economy and research techs. Then when you finally do get there, you've got to have enough money to upgrade your units to rifles, or you need to start building them. If you only have 4 cities, unless the other 3 are pumping out only soldiers, I just don't see how getting there early is going to help that much.

Conceptually, the ideal setup for a new tech that has a substantial military upgrade (like rifling) is to have 'x' amount of units on your borders ready top go and enough cash to upgrade them all for an immediate push. Obviously the advantage is that you're the 'first' to get the new units but you only have a specific number of turns to exploit that unit until the other civs get the same tech (at turn 104 you likely have a solid 20-30 turns if you snagged both the GL and the PT).

So my analysis is this: unless you have a specific target (in your example likely Siam), and you have BOTH the units to upgrade to riflemen AND the cash to do it, I just don't see a tactical advantage for rushing to rifling. Now, with that said if you DO have both the units and the cash, then for those 20-30 turns you are an unstoppable demi-god and it makes complete sense.

Cool analysis on how you got there though, thanks.

 

[Tabarnak]

When semi-isolated on a continent it's a useful tactic. In fact, you only need Oracle if you don't feel you will get Great Library first. The trick is to get 2 great scientists around turn 100 with the help of Porcelain Tower and Oracle, then jump to rifles.

When you expand peacefully you expect to build lot of pikemen while going for rifles, then upgrade all the stuff when you hit astronomy 6-10 turns later, then go rampage. You want to keep iron (if scarce) for the ship with 30 strengh (don't remember the name).

In another game, i won a conquest victory in 161 turns on a standard continent map with 8 players and i throwed 9 rifles on turn 115 (9 turns later) on the other continent with big ships attacking coastal cities and when the last civ got rifles (the guy was still there) i had 4x rifles than him.

Again, this can be made in specific situations, and the beeline made by the guy with an impressive under 90 turns before last patch was made probably with an hard beeline with help of great Lib and Oracle while pushing for scientists like mad without going for steel first, which i didnt try at all.

The thing is you can't beeline steel and come back for Education to get these rifles as fast as indicated, like it was before patch. You have to make more choices, which is a really good thing. Lot of paths to go in the game was the bread and butter for Civ4 and they try to implement this to Civ5 as well.

It was easy to have a big army while teching like mad to rifles before patch, but it looks like it's not the case anymore. MAKE A CHOICE!

Edit : I think they should add a 12-15 strengh unit in the tech tree somewhere to add more spice about all the choosing paths stuff. There is no units between 12 and 17 strengh, which is a huge gap early on. A bit boring when you think that you absolutely need longswordmen someday to survive on a pangea map without choke points. Another route should be implemented to make more variability.

 

[Kyp Durron]

Any 8 player game eh? Must have been mad laggy with many many reloads.

 

[Tabarnak]

That wasnt so bad after all...many 6 players games were more dfficult to play. Maybe land mass have a relation with?
No city states helped for sure.

If all players have a very good comp(Quad core) i think its possible to get 8 players and running smooth enough, and it was probably the case.

Took 4h15 to finish 161 turns.

 

[Tabarnak]

About the necessity to rush rifles, well its obvious that you want to use them ASAP. If you don't have both units and money, well don't go for rifles it doesnt worth it.

The advantage of getting early powerful units is you will almost ALWAYS have more of these than anyone else for the rest of the game, because after rifles you will want to build and ONLY build riflemen.

Edit : You can't beeline only the bottom of the tech tree for a rifle rush. You need education to accelerate the rush, so you need civil service, which is needed for mass upgrade if you are stuck with few iron ressource and to maximise science with bigger cities. Expect to get national college before turn 70 to have a chance to do this.

With some testings, i think 3 cities is the more optimal way to get NC without falling in defense. You can beeline iron working with 2 cities( a third one need an extra happiness tech, unless happy mine is around) and if you get lucky you will get swords to rampage a civ, then build 2 libraries and NC after. If you build a library and NC before expand, it's usually worse than expanding first. With NC with cap only, you will get around 26-28 science around turn 30, but you can have 3 cities with libraries 7-8 turns later with 20 science, which is not a big deal. With NC built 10-15 turns later, you will jump at 35ish science, and you have built more units and improved more tiles as well. Waiting 12-15 turns for NC for the sake of expansion is advantageous on quick speed MP. Single player is another world, and it's usually better to build NC right of the bat.

Oh, and i don't discovered El dorado yet in a multiplayer game....

 

[Tabarnak]

Got a nice choke point on a corner of a pangea map with 6 players. I built spearmen only and built Oracle and National College as well. I upgraded all my 6 spearmen to pikemen in 1 turn around turns 70-80(correction : 65-70). Got rifles turn 101. Turn 102 i had 9 riflemen...end of game. Never attacked until turn 102, but always had a nice protective army during the processus. Getting rifles before turn 100 is possible i guess.

A rush of longswordmen and the possibility of having early riflemen as well is really hard to push. I need to rush somenone with swords with 2 cities and build NC after. This help to get steel and keep science high around turn 75. That way, i easily upgrade my swords and continue rampage if i still lead in soldiers, and build things to speed research.

On the other side, if i want to rush steel and build NC peacefully, i don't have time to build everything, and i will receive a tech without a possibility to make a strong army in few turns.

Well, if i really want a longswordmen rush peacefully and not build NC, i will have them around turn 80, but i can't get riflemen before turn 130, even 140. I have to take the most cities with them and continue to build longswordmen when i discover other iron ressources. Catherine may be the best civ to do this.

But, what can happen if i want to get a player with longswordmen against pikemen(see paragraph 1) with a choke point? I have to get the most buffs from honor as possible. Obviously, because i don't want to build NC or Oracle(don't need aristocracy to speed things up) and i will want to go warmongering with the best army possible.

In conclusion, if i want a riflemen rush, i will certaily need the 33% bonus inside my territory, because i will want to defend my country against a possible longswordmen army with a nice bonus, around turn 80 at best, and i can easily get this with the help of Oracle. This wonder is greater than Great library for the riflemen rush. Keep him busy while you gently go to rifles, and upgrade everything. Stock riflemen can eat buffed longswordmen for breakfast, and if you get enough culture you can get 15% adjacent bonus as well. Don't take free GG, you will get one with the fighting. If you miss oracle, take the failure gold for the best use, and don't expect to get rifles before turn 115....

There is certainly more routes to go but this is what i discovered so far.

 

[Tabarnak]

Upgrading spearmen to pikemen is very possible around turn 65, couple of turns before a ''doable'' longswordmen rush, making this strategy (combined with Oligarchy and a GG or adjacent bonus) effective against almost every kind of threats if you manage to fight from a little choke point.

The goal is to survive to rifles while keeping at least 6-9 units ready to be upgraded. If you need all your forces and not be able to keep some, you may want to use a combination of muskets and knights beelined from your 2 scientists. This allow you to build horsemen and upgrade them, and keep the possibility to build longswordmen. Muskets are cheaper though and they are ressourceless.

If you manage to go to rifles, you can't build swords, pikes or muskets. That's why you need units ready to be upgraded.

 

[swordspider]

Very nice overall review of your tactics. Now I just have to watch out for you in Multi and I'll know exactly where you're going based on the wonders you are building.

J/K, seriously, good review of your tactics though, thanks.

 

[Tabarnak]

It's like setting a time bomb for 65 turns....this can blow in your face if you don't take care.

But if you do all this perfectly, the bomb gonna blow in your opponents and you will laugh at them!

I don't try this if i'm stuck between too much troublemakers...

 

[comablack]

turn 104 is insane, my best is 150ish with no money to upgrade, i think i dumped to much of if into city states, how many and what units did you have at 104 to upgrade?

are you rushing NC then expanding, or fast expanding to 3-4 then building the libs and NC
been trying as china for the gold from papermakers

 

[Tabarnak]

Expanding first with 3 cities seem better. Satellites cities build warriors/spearmen while capital try to build Oracle.

Synchro is important if you want to build NC earliest as possible right after your cities have built libraries. Start them sooner in satellites cities since they produce less than your capital.

Cities must be placed where production can be raised with a worker, improvements(like cows, horses and hills) and chopping are your best friends.

I played a game where an opponent built NC without expansion. I watched demographics screen through turns and i managed to catch him around 100 AD. I had 5 cities and he had 3 at that point. I was leading in military and gnp.
I didnt try a riflemen rush since i wanted longswords fast. Production and money is more important than having big science early on. I finally got rifles at turn 113 with help of my Great scientist from Oracle with 14 longswordmen ready to be upgraded. I didnt take the civil service/edu route.

Rifles turn 93 is my best record so far in a multiplayer game....i don't think i will get a land like that again...it was just insane. Made this with Catherine with extra production from horse and iron in almost all cities. I had like 25 iron ressources and 30 horses from 5 cities!

 

[comablack]

thanks for the infos been very helpful
Do you build any buildings at the satellites other than the libraries?
What social policies? The liberty-citizenship to start look good, but then are limited later, same with tradition for aristocracy, or is it better to just go down honor for 50% upgrades?

scout settler settler at start or something else? seems like you want the second settler to finish when you hit iron, but that doesn't seem possible wit the tech i was doing, iron would come way late

pottery mining writing philosophy bronze iron, or is there something better?
actually this seems ideal as you can build the oracle while the lower production satellites start on libraries

Also do you play with city states, and or barbs? if yes to city states spend gold on maritime ones?

 

[Tabarnak]

thanks for the infos been very helpful
Do you build any buildings at the satellites other than the libraries?
What social policies? The liberty-citizenship to start look good, but then are limited later, same with tradition for aristocracy, or is it better to just go down honor for 50% upgrades?

scout settler settler at start or something else? seems like you want the second settler to finish when you hit iron, but that doesn't seem possible wit the tech i was doing, iron would come way late

pottery mining writing philosophy bronze iron, or is there something better?
actually this seems ideal as you can build the oracle while the lower production satellites start on libraries

Also do you play with city states, and or barbs? if yes to city states spend gold on maritime ones?

1-no
2-Tradition, then oligarchy or aristocracy
3- at start : depend of settings and map
4a-AH-Mining-Bronze working or Pottery(en route to philo if defending with warriors)-luxury tech-iron working (try to put a city close to happy mine to delay luxury techs)
4b-Exactly, but not before you ensured a sufficient defense
5-city states => early cash boost, free worker
barbs => Need better defense, but lower probabilities of a very early rush from humans
no barbs and city states => best settings for fastest rush possible but watch out for other players
no city states and barbs => worst situation in term of expansion and cash earnings, but all humans will struggle in the beginning so it's fair

Money is needed for upgrades and land tiles and a possible worker or settler in the beginning. Unless you are alone on your continent, giving cash for CS is usually a bad idea.

 

[Tabarnak]

UPDATE

From many games i played i decided to write a compilation of last weeks observations about getting a riflemen rush. There are the paths :

1-Oracle or Great library (Edit : any wonders built below turn 42 is good if a rifle rush is wanted around turn 110. But other ones can't be used for an accelerated rush combined with Porcelaine tower)

1a) I build one of them
1b) I didn't build one of them

2-I discover IW

a) I have at least 4 iron
b) I have less than 4 iron

3-Neighbors

3a) I have 1 or 2 close neighbors and no choke point
3b) I have 1 or 2 close neighbors and a choke point
3c) I don't have close neighbor

Oracle (Edit : Stonehenge is similar in term of culture scaling) is good for defense(oligarchy), offense(honor) or wonders(aristocracy). Great Library is needed for early Iron working or very early Civil Service (Edit : Other wonders may too difficult to get soon enough or may not help your civilisation through the processus). Make your choice depending of the situation below for 1a-...-...---> options. One of these wonders is needed for rifles with the help of a Great Person. Build one of them before turn 42 to get rifles before turn 110.

Going Education after Steel makes no sense. After Steel you want to get Civil Service at best but not more. Education early or it doesn't worth it.

Education help to accelerate the rifle rush from Great Scientist only. The capital will be needed for this. You have to play peacefully until rifles for that option. Porcelaine Tower and a possible university in a big capital combined with National college is the key. You can shave a dozen turns with the Education path. Getting more cities depend of varieties of luxuries you can work. More cities may result in the impossibility to trigger a golden age when it counts. But more cities is more production and a bit more science. Getting more cities will not accelerate the rifle rush but result in more riflemen factories. This on quick speed obviously.

1a-2a-3a---> Go steel. No brainer. Get longswordmen and kill a civ. Make money and build more of them if possible. Get Civil Service after that and make your way to rifles.

1a-2a-3b--->Go Steel. Depend of map. If you make enough money and have enough luxuries to get a golden age before rifle, you can wait peacefully with longswordmen easily protecting your land. Getting Education peacefully is another option.

1a-2a-3c--->Go Civil Service before Steel. If you really think it will be easy to hold everything, go to Education. You will shave some turns to rifles but maybe a lack of money to upgrade pikemen. You may have time to build enough longswordmen later tho.

1a-2b-3a--->Go Civil Service ASAP. Place your cities carefully and get some horsemen too. Go chivalry if you really think you are going to struggle but don't expect to get rifles soon. Your GP will help to get them earlier than not having built a wonder tho.

1a-2b-3b--->Same as 1a-2b-3a. Except you will probably don't need chivalry and still be able to get early rifles. Education can be better than getting more cities if too much infrastructures are needed.

1a-2b-3c--->Same as 1a-2b-3b. Take it easy and put well placed pikemen around. Scout a bit more to prevent ennemy rushes. More cities usually better than getting Education if many luxuries are still waiting to be claimed.

1b-2a-3a--->Go steel ASAP. Make war and try to get a lot of cities to maximise science. Build coliseums, circus and longswordmen. You may get rifles before turn 120.

1b-2a-3b--->If you face another ennemy's choke point, put more cities than usual behind if you can and build coliseums and circus. Prioritize Civil Service if lot of rivers instead of Steel and don't go to Education. Otherwise, go at war.

1b-2a-3c--->Expand. Build coliseums and circus. Prioritize Civil Service and maybe a maritime CS if lot of luxuries. Many paths can be hold here. Cities vs education a lot questionnable. Go Steel after Civil Service if you can build enough longswordmen before rifles.

1b-2b-3a--->Worse situation. If 2 or 4 iron prioritize steel. If not prioritize chivalry. Try to do your best. No riflemen rush here....

1b-2b-3b--->Prioritize Civil Service. Expand more and build coliseums and circus. If not go Education ASAP. Defend and turtle to rifles. Education doesn't accelerate rifles here and it doesn't slow you down either, but another GS will pop later if you didn't build any wonders and gives you a useful golden age to buy and build even more rifles.

1b-2b-3c--->Same as 1b-2a-3c. You will want to expand more if lot of luxuries.

Feel free to suggest other paths.

 

[Smote]

Any:

Make good friends with neighbor. Plot against opponents. Skip bronze working, iron working. Go straight education.

Plot with neighbor more.
Go straight chemistry, build iron works, skip rifling, go straight to public schools

Make more friends.
Use great scientists to get research lab, click on "Giant Death Robots"



Once you research giant death robots, apologize and destroy everyone.

Yes, I've done this before, its quite funny if you pull it off.

 

[Tabarnak]

Any:

Make good friends with neighbor. Plot against opponents. Skip bronze working, iron working. Go straight education.

Plot with neighbor more.
Go straight chemistry, build iron works, skip rifling, go straight to public schools

Make more friends.
Use great scientists to get research lab, click on "Giant Death Robots"



Once you research giant death robots, apologize and destroy everyone.

Yes, I've done this before, its quite funny if you pull it off.

Sarcasm? Remember, this is the multiplayer section!

 

[Smote]

Not sarcasm

Some players are as competitive as Prince AI!

 

[Smote]

managed turn 87 in a raging barb game... got oracle, great library (civil service), then went education b4 iron working. Built porcelain tower too.

only managed to upgrade 2 longswords to rifles initially, but it was quite funny killing jaguars left and right with rifles.

if you can synch your first golden age with university you get a bit more science since the universities get done faster

 

[Tabarnak]

Good job. The same strategy can be done for longswordmen, getting them turn 50 or less but unable to upgrade more than 2 or 3 of them, and still lacking in term of future potential production sites of these units.

If you face 8-9 longswordmen by turn 85 with only 2 rifles you can still have good chances to die. And getting them around turn 100-105 gives you more time to accumulate gold especially if you settled enough cities and have triggered a golden age just before the rush. You don't want to be out-produced when the opponent will catch the tech.