Riflemen turn 104 with new patch

[Smote]

Yeah, I agree. Army was actually 2 rifles, 1 longsword, 2 swordsmen, 2 pikemen (I ran out of gold!).

I think I could've done it sooner, also. I needlessly delayed capital's library + NC to get oracle sooner. I don't think it was worth it, but i was beaten to oracle the 2 games prior (by 1 turn each) and was rather annoyed (even though I won said games).

 

[Tabarnak]

I think I could've done it sooner, also. I needlessly delayed capital's library + NC to get oracle sooner.

I'm thinking about a nice strategy with NC first. I'm not a big fan of this approach in multiplayer, but i discovered some moves telling me what will be the best in some under conditions in the early turns, giving me more algorithms, leading to an higher probability to get the optimal strategy. This sounds pretty complicated, but i'm still working on these things.

In fact, i'm inspired from your liberty policy cities spamming example from another thread leading to a swordrush. Liberty is (far) superior to tradition for a very early rush. This is obvious at first view, but i will probably let down aristocracy and/or oligarchy.

Wonders must be eliminated from the strategy and i need far superior units and in great numbers to face backstabbers or warmongers if i fight in my territory.

Primary, i'm using NC first to see what is the optimal way to get early longswordmen. In one try i managed to get 4 LS on turn 54. I had 3 cities. Went Honor after Liberty and got a GG for turn 55. With this little army, it's possible to crush many city-states and ennemy cities. This approach is pure warmongering. If i get more GGs, i would probably use them for golden ages. I reached turn 70 when i had to quit for work. I had 7 cities, 4 of mine and 3 puppets. Tech rate was pretty good even if i built only 1 library. Imagine now you continue to build and upgrade LS with your 4-5 cities. Can you still have rifles before turn 110 somewhere?

Well i think it's possible. Because hammers used for my initial 3 cities strategy need a wonder and 2 extra libraries. Army can be weak in the beginning if land is hammer poor. If i can translate these hammers in coliseums and managed to get more luxuries, i will certainly get more population. Rifles with 60 science is approx. 13-14 turns. These are the turns you save when you use a single GP. It's the opportunity you want to use against opponents. Can i get enough science to compensate these 13 turns? Again, i think it's viable with lot of cities and population. This path may be better than the Wonder early path. Enough Iron ressources are needed. I'm thinking about Askia if things don't appear like i want. Going Chivalry early with NC first is always possible. Mandekalu is another option, but can't get translated to riflemen.

Another path, more peaceful, is going Education before Steel with NC first. Staying with swordmen and/or pikemen for a very long time and use PT to teleport to rifles. But the impossibility to build LS early enough raise your upgrade cost for riflemen when they are available. You may want to get oligarchy and aristocracy after Liberty to build PT fast enough and protect yourself. Another GS will pop 34 turns later after PT and i bet you can use it to leverage the rifle rush some turns later.

I will post more details in next days.

 

[Smote]

Hmm. I actually haven't tried Liberty in a tech strategy, but it may work out. 3 seems a bit weak for a Liberty build, so I'm thinking 4. Settling on 2 new luxuries is recommended. 2-3 worker steals from CS/nation is recommended. Sword rushing CS is recommended if possible before upgrading to longswords.

1 tech plan is AH -> Writing -> Mining/Calender/Trapping/Wheel/Masonry -> IW -> Steel -> Rifling.
2nd tech plan is AH -> Writing -> Mining/Calender/Trapping/Wheel/Masonry -> IW -> Education -> Rifling
3rd tech plan is AH -> Writing -> Mining/Calender/Trapping/Wheel/Masonry -> IW -> Civil Service -> Rifling
4th tech plan is AH -> Writing -> Mining/Calender/Trapping/Wheel/Masonry -> Education -> Rifling
[this one very dangerous if not isolated]
5th tech plan is AH -> Writing -> Mining/Calender/Trapping/Wheel/Masonry -> Civil Service -> Rifling

Which ones are you trying?
Or something different?

 

[Tabarnak]

The direct rifles path. I played last night a deity game to see if this strategy is powerful enough. I played Continents with Catherine and i landed with France and Siam. Small map with 9 city states. I was on the bottom of continent with 2 city states around.

On turn 56 i had 3 mature cities, 2 settled earlier with help of liberty tree. I upgraded 4 LS and i reached warrior code for a free GG. I easily captured the 2 CS. Capital built 2 more cities and 2 workers when my 2 other cities built 2 swordmen 2 times each. That is a lot of 2s! I was now at turn 70 with 8 LS. I waited to turn 80 with 3 more LS for a total of 11. Golden age spawned at turn 82. I declared war to France. He built thw great wall and had muskets but only 1 or 2. Other units was most horsemen and pikemen. It was fairly easy. I destroyed France around 100. I finally got rifles at turn 102. Siam had no chance at all. I played this game like a real multiplayer game. No trades at all. Well luxuries 1 vs 1 trade is common in multi but this is not like abusing something. But i still traded nothing.

This game was biaised because it's impossible to get such grow under human players. But i think it's still possible to get rifles before turn 110. Wars will be much easier against humans unless they did almost the same through steel or chivalry. If you reach 10-12 cities before turn 90 and build libraries and coliseums along the crusade....i don't need to explain what you can do after.

One important thing i observed is i might delay some luxuries to don't get a golden age too soon.
Turn 55 with such army is really really powerful. Defenses are still weak everywhere, even on deity.

I will try the Education path tonight.

 

[Smote]

That's very cool. So you just resign yourself to low tech, but national college will still eventually get you rifling (though you'll never get infantry!). The longsword invasion needs to give you enough beakers through captured cities to get to riflemen I expect.

Also, you will have lower production than a civil service player. However, he will likely be wasting many hammers on city improvements, while you gamble with full military.

I don't think it would hold up on continents w/ good teching opponent on other continent. You might have trouble getting to astronomy, and will likely be unable to get past other player's naval defense. If he gets research labs first, he will win.

You will likely get domination on pangaea very effectively with this.

I usually avoid Honor, because I find Piety -> Theocracy makes for a much better economy for any 5 city+ civilization. Then again, Theocracy takes 3 policies which is very tough, since its usually #3-5 (oracle or stonehenge usually required). However, adding that GG does make things much easier (and allows for a golden age with the first spawned great general). So I agree with Honor, overall for this strategy, since building a wonder would slow this down too much.

Why do you say it is impossible to grow that fast with human opponents? I find it is equal- just DOW every opponent by killing their scouts/warriors, so you dont have to worry about worker steal or settler snipe.

Best case scenario: 2 horse in capital with turn 1 pop ruin, turn 3 culture ruin I think its 3 or 4 turn settlers.

Do you prefer delaying until after the conquest of some puppets, such that the golden age affects puppet income?

 

[Tabarnak]

That's very cool. So you just resign yourself to low tech, but national college will still eventually get you rifling (though you'll never get infantry!). The longsword invasion needs to give you enough beakers through captured cities to get to riflemen I expect.

Also, you will have lower production than a civil service player. However, he will likely be wasting many hammers on city improvements, while you gamble with full military.

I don't think it would hold up on continents w/ good teching opponent on other continent. You might have trouble getting to astronomy, and will likely be unable to get past other player's naval defense. If he gets research labs first, he will win.

You will likely get domination on pangaea very effectively with this.

I usually avoid Honor, because I find Piety -> Theocracy makes for a much better economy for any 5 city+ civilization. Then again, Theocracy takes 3 policies which is very tough, since its usually #3-5 (oracle or stonehenge usually required). However, adding that GG does make things much easier (and allows for a golden age with the first spawned great general). So I agree with Honor, overall for this strategy, since building a wonder would slow this down too much.

Why do you say it is impossible to grow that fast with human opponents? I find it is equal- just DOW every opponent by killing their scouts/warriors, so you dont have to worry about worker steal or settler snipe.

Best case scenario: 2 horse in capital with turn 1 pop ruin, turn 3 culture ruin I think its 3 or 4 turn settlers.

Do you prefer delaying until after the conquest of some puppets, such that the golden age affects puppet income?

Why lower production than Civil Service? If you run into unhappiness for a long period of time after a conquest, Civil Service doesn't help at all. (Edit : maybe if you need some pikemen for extra protection)

Warrior code is similar to get a free golden age. Later, 1.5X xp with brand new rifles will let you to abuse free heals.

I said humans can't grow like deity AI so early. I captured a pop 15 capital from France on turn 90ish.... Humans in multi can't do that. If yes, i really want to know how. Without losing production.

Yeah golden age must be more useful after your first wave of conquests. But if this can help you to produce more and faster LS, it's ok too.

On a continent map, if you reach Rifles around turn 110 and 15-20 are waiting to get on another continent, i bet you can win this game 98% of time.

 

[Smote]

Why lower production than Civil Service? If you run into unhappiness for a long period of time after a conquest, Civil Service doesn't help at all. (Edit : maybe if you need some pikemen for extra protection)

Consider: Land is riverside hills and riverside grassland. 10 population.

Without civil service, maximum production is:
5 grassland farms, 4 mines, 1 farm/hill, for a total of 18 hammers [palace gives +2]
With civil service, maximum production is 9 farm/hills, 1 mine for a total of 25 hammers.

Since production is food constrained, food -> production.

The gain is a little worse with civil service if it is grassland farms feeding hill/mines, but still a little better overall.

The more farms that can be used while keeping balanced surplus food of 0, the more civil service helps production. Apparently, you already recognize its effect on growth, which also gives a transient boost to production [grow higher faster to get to higher production faster].

 

[Smote]

I said humans can't grow like deity AI so early. I captured a pop 15 capital from France on turn 90ish.... Humans in multi can't do that. If yes, i really want to know how. Without losing production.

2 city w/ great library [civil service] and NC, tech to education. Its very good with beakers/social policies but is a huge struggle to survive. Best done w/ egypt, france, or russia. Also powerful to build oracle and stonehenge if possible. I have built all 3 before in multiplayer. Civil Service rescues your beakers and hammers, since you only have 2 cities.

Stonehenge is especially powerful because +8 culture is great for 2 cities. The last game I did it I recovered my hammers by a turn 55 Merchant Navy SP [this is also especially powerful for late ICS strategy if desired since you can spam +3 hammer cities]

A noob next to me did a "sword rush" [~turn 55] which was easily repelled with 2 pikemen and a war chariot. I think I would've died to 4 longswords if I tried this next to you

 

[Tabarnak]

Consider: Land is riverside hills and riverside grassland. 10 population.

10 population? If you go for an early rush you will emphasise on hammer, reducing growth. If you get a massive amount of puppets it will slow you down ever more. When i say Civil Service is useless it's when i compare 4-6 pop capital, not much more.

Worker has probably not the time to work more than 1-2 mines before turn 55 if you counsider happiness tiles and farms needed to stay happy and work these mines.

When you are able to reach rifles it's not rare to get 10 pop capital in ffa games. In some games i can stay for 6 population for all the time working the 6 best tiles at stagnant grow and concentrate growth for other cities. Always depend what the capital have to offers.

What i am saying is that you can actually delay Civil Service for other techs you may need before. But Civil Service let you to build pikemen so it's a valuable tech even if you don't or can't grow.

 

[Smote]

10 population? If you go for an early rush you will emphasise on hammer, reducing growth. If you get a massive amount of puppets it will slow you down ever more. When i say Civil Service is useless it's when i compare 4-6 pop capital, not much more.

Worker has probably not the time to work more than 1-2 mines before turn 55 if you counsider happiness tiles and farms needed to stay happy and work these mines.

When you are able to reach rifles it's not rare to get 10 pop capital in ffa games. In some games i can stay for 6 population for all the time working the 6 best tiles at stagnant grow and concentrate growth for other cities. Always depend what the capital have to offers.

What i am saying is that you can actually delay Civil Service for other techs you may need before. But Civil Service let you to build pikemen so it's a valuable tech even if you don't or can't grow.

It was just for the sake of comparison. Your argument is valid. A problem of civil service game is keeping up with improvements since the cities grow so fast! Captured workers help immensely. Usually 2 workers for capital, 1 worker for each other city does nicely.

The egypt game I described, I had 2 population 10 cities at turn ~70.

It is not difficult to use tradition to get population 10 capital very quickly, especially if you great library civil service. It's likely achievable by turn 50. Civil Service is also a valuable tech because it indirectly increases hammers via more efficient food creation, even if you can't grow.

I am well-aware of these strategies, because I have a particular fondness for 1cc and 2cc Egypt w/ wonder-spamming.

 

[Tabarnak]

Civil Service is also a valuable tech because it indirectly increases hammers via more efficient food creation, even if you can't grow.

Only if cities have riversided tiles.

In a aggressive warmonger game, after you got Steel, you may want Machinery instead of Civil Service. Extra movement is nice when you have to cover a long stretch of cities especially when your capital is on the farthest side of it. If you stop war and have to protect 2-3 fronts, it's also very useful. Bring these workers fast and build roads. If you have 1 or 2 archers, you can always upgrade them.

But if i have lot of rivers and got a land not too hard to defend, i think Civil Service worth more than Machinery.

 

[Tabarnak]

I am well-aware of these strategies, because I have a particular fondness for 1cc and 2cc Egypt w/ wonder-spamming.

I did something similar described in the first post of this thread. Had no rivertiles at all tho. But i wanted Education fast since i had no iron. I resisted to an attack with weaker units under oligarchy.

 

[Smote]

Only if cities have riversided tiles.

Tiles next to a lake or oasis work as well.

Another amusing thing is that you actually can grow your capital while unhappy. Tradition gives +50% food. Coupled with unhappy, you are left at:

-75%, +50% = -25% total. 6-7 turn growth is achievable during unhappiness

Aztec floating gardens also has a better effect if you are unhappy, since 15% helps 75% more than 15% helps 150% [multiplicatively].

If you can manage Aztec+ We love King day [important for 1cc!]+ Tradition, you are at 115% growth during unhappiness.

 

[Tabarnak]

Yes i forgot about fresh water tiles. Lakes an oasis are considerated.

 

[Smote]

Achieved 10 riflemen @ turn 93. It was an amazing start as russia, with 3 horses near capital! Iron later revealed 2 stacks of iron! Quickly got 5 luxuries [there were 3 calender luxuries, all different from eachother and from the two by capital, in a trio of hexes- I was amazed]. France decided it was a good idea to build a city between 2 of my cities to jack the 3 luxuries, when i got this hammer heavy start. It cost him 2 warriors to defend his settler all the way there, as I attacked it vigorously. Killed his capital and 2nd city with 6 warriors @ turn 30-38. [Was at 4 cities w/ tradition policy]. He got pissy, accused me of cheating and left [they weren't even swordsmen!]. I peaced AI and got a nice chunk of gold, bought 2 workers.

Did all the normal stuff, built oracle, porcelain tower, and also chichen itza. teched iron working -> education -> taj mahal tech -> rifling [used 2 great scientist to get rifling]

Rifling @ turn 93, 1500 gold in funds [never could find a maritime to invest in]. Made 10 rifles, could've easily made far more. Was in permanent golden age from about turn 60 until game ended [people gave up ~turn 110].

This long golden age was from using
1. general for golden age
2. happiness golden age
3. piety tree golden age
4. taj mahal golden age

All with chichen itza.

I'm sure I could've sacrificed some infrastructure and done the rifle rush a lot faster [potentially 10 turns faster, with maybe 15 rifles], but I really wanted machinery to upgrade a Survivalism 2 archer to a crossbowman And then, Taj was only 1 tech away.

Policy Order was Tradition - Aristocracy - Piety - The one b4 theocracy - Theocracy - Piety Golden age policy.

 

[Tabarnak]

Great hammer start can be a killer. You reached Education before Steel, even if you had enough iron. But Taj gave you an incredible boost later, reaching a big army of rifles very early. Interesting. Well done!

 

[Smote]

map settings: quick/continents/small. i started on snaky section 2-3 tiles wide, some hills, some fish/whale, many grassland, no river or other fresh water. capital started next to a 3/0 hex and a 2/1 hex, so i was pleased.

I tried your longsword rush, and it worked like a charm. I finished researching steel turn 54, only had enough gold for 2 longswords because i had to buy a trireme earlier to deal with barb boat [I knew gold deficiency would happen, but i needed fish/whale resource barb was blocking]

built 1 worker, captured 2 worker from CS @ around turn 25-30

2 longsword + 2 sword @54, upgraded to 3 longsword + 1 sword a few turns later, and conquered egypt

Did 2 city NC, 2nd city built settler while first built NC, settled near iron, improve, upgrade 2 warriors to swords, take out a CS, finish 2 more swords, upgrade 2 swords [and later 1 more] to longswords, attack egypt. reached his capital @ turn 60

tech order was AH -> pottery -> writing -> mining -> sailing -> iron working -> the wheel -> trapping -> steel [steel before calender!]


by the way, i had a very nice 2nd city setup. settled on 3food hex [cow], used another 3 food hex. this created a surplus of 4 food, which was easily set to work on 2 hills, for 3 population, 6 production without improvements