kenken244
Grammar Nazi
i think ring of flames should deal a random amount of damage, then spread it amongst all targets. if the base fire strength was somewhat lower then it would be reasonable
Ring of Flames
- Thread starter Bringa
- Start date
I'd recommend swapping pillar of fire and ring of flames. Reason is simple: single target vs aoe. Without exception that I can think of, aoe > single stack > single unit. Granted, pillar of fire currently does more damage to one stack that the ring, but it's relatively easy to contrive a situation to have the ring affect 2-3 enemy *stacks* at once.
On a personal note, I've dubbed the practice of bringing large stacks of priests to kill masses of AI units as "confessor bombing".
I would make sure there are no aoe damage spells of level 2. Reserve aoe for level 3 spells only.
On a personal note, I've dubbed the practice of bringing large stacks of priests to kill masses of AI units as "confessor bombing".
I would make sure there are no aoe damage spells of level 2. Reserve aoe for level 3 spells only.
onedreamer
Dragon
Is it a game for kids or what ? Fireballs are more powerful than RoF if you consider Mages to defend against Ritualists/Confessors, because they are RANGED. This means that with a proper tactic your confessors will not have a chance to cast their spell, or not all of them. If you can naturally promote your confessors with Mobility I, I can naturally promote my mages with Mobility I. I obviously know that in terms of raw power, RoF is better. But this is a strategy game...
Also what you guys are missing is how to express a problem. There is a problem. Ok, let's analyse it:
statement: Ring of Flames damage output is too high, making this spell too powerful. (note from Onedreamer: I think it wasn't so powerful once. It may be the new combat system that modified its power, if somehow it goes back to the dmg output of 0.16 I think it should be fine again).
statements in this thread: Ring of Flames is too powerful because with a handy confessors I can conquer the world, kill billions of units, be invulnerable to any unit, be superior to any other possible tactic or counter-tactic, and I can show you how, but if you ask me to show it, I will just answer with "I won't go on with a list on how I can do it" or "Check it yourself with World Builder" instead of using the good old mathematics, geometry, and words.
But I have to agree, it does not matter if fireballs are ranged if you attack cities. When you attack city, you have clearly designated goal amd you know where are you enemies, all that ranged attack changes is that it will take 1 more turn to reach city. Stories about 'mages being able to run 1 tile away and then cast' are silly, they cant run away since you are attacking city. My 2 cents, but I don't see the point of this thread since we all agree that it is too powerful and Kael is now seeking to change the way spells deal damage.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I have never really minded RoF (probably because I have yet to play FfH in a multiplayer game), but I think I've found a few glitches with it. I believe Kael said that half of Order civs' RoF damage should be Holy, and Half of Veil Civs' damage unholy. Ritulists RoF don't seem to be doing any unholy damage.
Also, the RoF spell of a Priest of the Leaves (ok, I cheated using worldbuilder) with FoL as state religion did holy damage. I've also seen my FoL units go to serve the Mercurians.
Also, the RoF spell of a Priest of the Leaves (ok, I cheated using worldbuilder) with FoL as state religion did holy damage. I've also seen my FoL units go to serve the Mercurians.
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
its pillar of fire spell that deals holy damage.
the way the pillar of fire deals damage is it is always half fire half holy but if the unit has the AV promotion then it deals no holy damage but the same amount as unholy
the way the pillar of fire deals damage is it is always half fire half holy but if the unit has the AV promotion then it deals no holy damage but the same amount as unholy
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
oops double post. the forum is out to get me
onedreamer
Dragon
My 2 cents are: before advising ppl to try did the RoF worshippers actually try ? You don't need to retreat mages, ranged spell simply means that your 10 confessors won't be able to reach a city defended by 10 mages. Fireballs collateral damage doesn't kill ? True, but the fireball itself does. And since it can be cast from at least 2 tiles away, this means that 10 confessors should resist 20 fireballs, at least 3 confessors should survive to be able to kill the whole stack of mages. Try it out...
Chandrasekhar
Determined
10 mages can have a stack of macemen with them, and it won't help them a bit. 10 confessors can have a stack of macemen with them, and they'll be immune to the mages' attacks. Or, if you don't like that, the confessors could also take a mobility promotion/have one haste caster with them.
in other words-
there is only one perfect defence against ring of flames(fire immune) and the only other solution can only be taken by a magic resistant civ promoting to fire resistence(this is still imperfect-useless if they have enough)
for fireballls- all you need is 2 fire immune units, and 2 healz,
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
I *****ed about Ring of Fire first time I saw it too, because it was great being able to use a Tier one unit to ANNIHILATE all defenders in a city. Know how you deal with the mages? Stack more units. Know how you deal with the confessors? Run the hell way!
Sureshot
Goddess
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,771
actually, its a Tier 3 unit.
Warriors/Scouts are Tier 1 units
Adepts/Prophets/DiscipleOfLeaves/Zealot/Acolyte/etc. are Tier 2 units
Priests are Tier 3 units
High Priests/Inquisitors are Tier 4 units
onedreamer
Dragon
AHA... this is where I was waiting for you to get. So you do not conquer the world with 10 confessors... but confessors + macemen + mage with haste blah blah blah... so were we speaking of Ring of Flames awarding you the ability to conquer the world or of Ring of Flames dealing a hell lot of damage ??
note: leave out mobility promotion, it's irrilevant. If confessors have mob. I promotions mages can have it too, move forward, cast fireball, and move backwards, hence they will still have 2 turns to strike the confessors (without spell extension, of course).
onedreamer
Dragon
OMG, after a 3 pages long thread you still don't get it... there are MANY defenses to RoF... first of which is RoF itself. It's a matter of strategy, mind you, this is a strategic game. You should discuss about RoF dealing too much damage or not, RoF being unstoppable is not the case.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I agree, there are plenty of counters. I would still recomend something bCalchet suggested a while ago: letting spells backfire in various ways, which becomes more likely the more you use it. If you use too many RoF in a turn , than a Confessor might accidently cast Pilar of Fire on his own tile instead. I think it should still be a lethal spel, but one that could have serious consequences if abused.
ring of flames can be used to take out cities with only 1-2 types of units...
something even mages cant do-as fireballs are both attacking units
fundamentally-ring of flames deals a % damage to all adjacent units,
while fireball deals damage limited in 2 ways to a single tile, and deals less damage to units it attacks with a higher strength (you will be left with at least one strong defender, with others merely weakened)
perhaps if the damage of ring of flames is divided by the units combat strength, using the confessors strength as a base, and some sort of non-magic tech counter for fire damage(aquaeus sucellus?)
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
my 3766586839453 dollars is:
whenever you face combat you need to be ready for anything. if you neglect trying to defend against even one thing then your opponent can exploit it. there is absolutly nothing that dosent have a counter. after all, fraxis was trying to get players to use a variety of units and if you neglect one thing a good opponent can exploit it
whenever you face combat you need to be ready for anything. if you neglect trying to defend against even one thing then your opponent can exploit it. there is absolutly nothing that dosent have a counter. after all, fraxis was trying to get players to use a variety of units and if you neglect one thing a good opponent can exploit it
3141592
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2007
- Messages
- 287
The point was, was that equally supported mages will lose against equally supported confessors. Ring of Flames has NO magical equal besides for maybe piler of flames. Also, hasting the confessors is very, very, very easy either use their second promotion on movement or put an adapt in the stack with them that can cast hast. Once that happens the confessors only need to live through TEN fireballs, and enough will to wipe the city out of existence.
Onedreamer, is this what you asked for?
TECHNICALLY:
for less then 1500 hammers you can get 10 confessors and and adapt with hast and one maceman and one pikeman.
You launch a sneak attack and move your units two squares into enemy territory next to a city or stack of units. You then obliterate the units and/or city. Thats how you start, you can then move two squares a turn and always try to end in a fortified position. Any AI that you end within one square is obliterated, fires will probably breakout and inhibit the AI's reinforcements. You should be able to hit one city every two to three turns, which you can just level or bring in additional support troops. The AI shouldn't be able to counter fast enough.
Feel free to poke holes in my scenario, I'm sure there are some, but I didn't even include the possibility of your units getting escorted by your civilization's or religions hero.
Silverkiss
NekoChan
Actually, if I remember correctly, both Crush (Earth III - Sorcery) and Contagion (Death II - Sorcery) do exactly the same, but in only 1 tile and doing other tipes of damage (Death damage for Contagion and I don't know wich for Crush).
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Here's another big difference between priests and mages: priests can generally get RoF the turn they're built (or maybe a couple of turns later if you're running peacetime civics). 2 xp, and then you have a RoF caster. Adepts need 10 xp to become a mage. While confessors can be made pretty much combat ready, mages require more of an investment.
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