[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[SammyKhalifa]

Or should this go to another thread, I'm confused at this point.

Haven't you learned yet? Every thread is about either Wide vs Tall or 1UPT.

 

[God of Kings]

It's great that Dark Ages are introduced in R&F.

They are a necessary evil in the history of many civilizations.

Great upheavals occur during the Dark Age, leading to major social changes, often ending up becoming stronger than even before the Dark Age, hence the Heroic Age.

The Medieval Dark Age allowed the more entrepreneurial peasants to start up their own businesses to some degree, leading to the Renaissance.

The Great Depression (which is a Modern-era Dark Age) led to the strengthening of trade unions and the formation of populist political parties.

The phoenix rises from its ashes.

 

[Leyrann]

The Great Depression (which is a Modern-era Dark Age) led to the strengthening of trade unions and the formation of populist political parties.

(and WWII)

 

[Zaarin]

We're getting a devstream with the new lead designer, Anton Strenger, and new PR, Sarah Darney.
source : https://twitter.com/sbar713/status/935643971677769735

But the real question is, will Anton open the Civilopedia?

 

[nzcamel]

Haven't you learned yet? Every thread is about either Wide vs Tall or 1UPT.

I blame @darkace77450 this time

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But the real question is, will Anton open the Civilopedia?

Seondeok and Tamar would be right next to each other alphabetically.

 

[Japper007]

Anyway, as I said, tweaking difficulty level has little to do with AI programming.

It has everything to do with it, you can't just keep giving it more cheats. Look at the Endless Space 2 AI, it gets bonuses that are outrageous even by Deity standards. It still can't provide a challenge to any barely decent opponent. You can give the civ6 AI 300 percent yields for all I care, it still can't challenge anyone with a working knowledge of the game, because 4 times faster nothing is still nothing. It needs to play better before an intermediate player can't beat it after a week of playing around with the game.

 

[Vahnstad]

I need to wash my eyes after reading some of the Youtube comments. I saw one saying hurray for more irrelevant female leaders, and that had over 200 likes. They really want most of the Civ leaders to be male? Boring!

On reddit, they all want Americans
on youtube, they all want Germans and males or Ataturk

Nooooooooo
Brazil & Australia are two modern countries with a limited impact on the world too many

Brazil was however okay for me. Their emperor was actually pretty well known, and did lots of good stuff for a monarch. They are also a rising power right now, and will most likely be one of the five or ten most important powers in the near future (and above all a regional power for centuries now), along other rising powers like India and China (China is already major power number 2). They are also not an English Colonial nation, but a Portuguese Colonial Nation, that isn't even yet in the game (they took their spot for a while). I would be glad to see Portugal at some point in the game (however not now), and maybe Portugal should be rather in the game than Brazil, but they want some diversity.

Australia and Canada however are ridicilous, and including them both is especially sad.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

(and WWII)

One might call that a Heroic Age that followed a Dark Age.

 

[Leyrann]

One might call that a Heroic Age that followed a Dark Age.

Depends on who you look at, I guess...

 

[darkace77450]

Well some people would complain no matter what, if Napoleon returned then there would be some that are mad its not X,Y, or Z. The REAL problem with Catherine de Medici is that she was chosen to highlight and be built around diplomatic levels and spying, and the way that is implemented into the game just isn't very useful/effective. Had her bonuses been more effective/fun to use then the majority of the complaints would be nothing but fluff. (Remember too, that this site is has very passionate players but represents a very small portion of the actual base, therefore complaints are frequent and of the "sky is falling" variety, but not always that representative of the actual playerbase.)

Speaking only for myself, it's not just that her Leader Ability is of little use or dull, it's that it doesn't represent the fantasy of France. When I think of France I think of the opulence of Loius XIV, the ambition of Napoleon, the wonderful art of the Renaissance, the ideals formed during the Enlightenment, etc. What I don't think about is Catherine de Medici's court intrigues. That's not to say that I don't want a leader focused on espionage, I just think France was a poor choice for this leader.

 

[God of Kings]

(and WWII)

One might call that a Heroic Age that followed a Dark Age.

WW2 is an "emergency" that is the result of Germany going on a militaristic conquest spree after entering a Heroic Age (Third Reich) after coming out of a Dark Age (Weimar Republic).

The Third Reich was defeated.

 

[nzcamel]

Brazil was however okay for me. Their emperor was actually pretty well known, and did lots of good stuff for a monarch. They are also a rising power right now, and will most likely be one of the five or ten most important powers in the near future (and above all a regional power for centuries now), along other rising powers like India and China (China is already major power number 2). They are also not an English Colonial nation, but a Portuguese Colonial Nation, that isn't even yet in the game (they took their spot for a while). I would be glad to see Portugal at some point in the game (however not now), and maybe Portugal should be rather in the game than Brazil, but they want some diversity.

Australia and Canada however are ridicilous, and including them both is especially sad.

Yeah...but when they are given a UU that would not beat the powers of the day equivalents, things are being stretched and distorted badly...

 

[Art Morte]

Has there been any speculation or info about what will trigger a golden or dark age?

 

[nzcamel]

It sounds like rather than just one thing it's a accumulation of different things. Which -if they can make it work- would be awesome

 

[darkace77450]

Has there been any speculation or info about what will trigger a golden or dark age?

I believe they said each Era will be scored and a high score can trigger a Golden Age in the next era while a low one can trigger a Dark Age.

 

[Uberfrog]

I believe they said each Era will be scored and a high score can trigger a Golden Age in the next era while a low one can trigger a Dark Age.

In addition, you can improve your Era score in a Dark or regular age by completing your Dedication, which is the focus you choose at the start of each era. Golden or Heroic Age Dedications do not improve your era score, so it's hard to chain golden ages.

 

[PhilBowles]

Here is all information: https://civilization.com/news/entries#announcing-civilization-vi-rise-and-fall

In short:
Dark and Golden Ages

Apparently these will be linked to 'challenges'. That bothers me a little as it sounds similar to the eureka system which I regard as something of a failed experiment that just encourages even more excessive nonimmersive min-maxing (switching out techs halfway through to get maximum eureka potential etc.) at high levels than is typical in Civ games. Though as you presumably aren't seeking out Dark Ages I'm not sure how that will work - if it's just a punishment mechanic for not completing challenges it will be both irrelevant in practice and conceptually problematic.

Governors

If this had been in an earlier iteration of the series I'd have been leery - steering away from hero characters is something Civ's been wise to do. Though it will wreak havoc with keeping the flavour of leading a civ through time to have persistent characters, hero characters are often handled pretty well in modern 4x games - Distant Worlds has the best execution to my mind.

Different types of alliances (scientific, commercial, military,...)
Heroic Moments
Emergencies
New civs and leaders
New Wonders

You missed the loyalty system, which sounds as though it's essentially the Civ IV cultural border system with a reskin that makes actual flavour sense, as opposed to "your city joins my empire because it really, really likes the paintings our Great Artists create".

With the name 'Rise and Fall' I have to think there will be nods to the Romans in some of the new Civ choices - maybe leader 9 is Julius Caesar, and I'd expect Byzantium to be one of the civs.

Brazil was however okay for me. Their emperor was actually pretty well known, and did lots of good stuff for a monarch. They are also a rising power right now, and will most likely be one of the five or ten most important powers in the near future (and above all a regional power for centuries now), along other rising powers like India and China (China is already major power number 2). They are also not an English Colonial nation, but a Portuguese Colonial Nation, that isn't even yet in the game (they took their spot for a while). I would be glad to see Portugal at some point in the game (however not now), and maybe Portugal should be rather in the game than Brazil, but they want some diversity.

I think that in general Civ VI has had an excellent selection of civs and leaders despite a couple of misses due to the '50% female leader' requirement (Catherine de Medici and Cleopatra). In fairness, given that restriction they've done well just to have two duds (EDIT: Okay, three. Sorry, Gorgo) given how far historical leaders have been skewed away from a 50-50 sex ratio.

But Brazil is a big miss for me (Australia as well, but I do like Curtin's animation and the rendition of Waltzing Matilda). Brazil's already had its 'Golden Age' - it's been stagnant or in relative economic decline for about a decade. The notion of Brazil as an 'emerging superpower' as formalised in the BRIC idea is verging on 20 years old and Brazil is the sole representative among those countries that did not realise its promised potential (although Russia didn't economically, it has a lot more political clout than it did 20 years ago). Brazil would have made much more sense as an inclusion in Civ III or IV than in Civs V and VI.

 

[Scaramanga]

WW2 is an "emergency" that is the result of Germany going on a militaristic conquest spree after entering a Heroic Age (Third Reich) after coming out of a Dark Age (Weimar Republic).

The Third Reich was defeated.

Great depression was a Dark Age. WWII was the emergency. US came out in Heroic Age, USSR just a Golden one.

 

[Art Morte]

I believe they said each Era will be scored and a high score can trigger a Golden Age in the next era while a low one can trigger a Dark Age.

Okay, well, I hope it's not too restrictive. I mean, that you don't have to always make the same decisions to hit that golden age score.

Also, no info, then, about what affects the score? Is it the score system that's already in the game or will it be something else?