[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[WillowBrook]

Civ 3 brought in city culture flipping of cities and it was a debacle initially and ultimately removed, players hated their city simply changing to the opposition due to culture especially in its first iteration which was vastly imbalanced

Minor point, but IIRC, they never removed it entirely in Civ III. The only significant danger after the second expansion, however, was right after conquering a city when it was still in revolt. But putting enough units in the city center quelled the risk. There was even a utility someone created to tell you how many units you needed to eliminate the risk of flipping.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the mechanic, and I like that it isn't as directly related to culture as in earlier iterations. Do we know how/if culture affects loyalty? I'd love if the concept of nationality of citizens returnedand tied to the loyalty system.

Additionally, I've been thinking about the loyalty system, and I'm curious as to whether the recent religious view changes were inspired by and/or preparation for it. Loyalty may well have its own map mode, and city to city pressure, and time until city "flipping" will both be important to show.

I imagine it will be something like this. I certainly like the new religious lens better than the original.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

While I'm really liking the idea of the governors, "free cities," etc., I'm still trying to wrap my head around a new "loyalty" system. Is it going to be another thing you'll be collecting buckets of? Seems like there's a really narrow wedge of space available there, and I'm hoping it doesn't feel like they're shoehorning something else in just because.. Happiness and Culture (and to a lesser extent tourism) would really be what determine "loyalty," right?

 

[Rosty K]

Minor point, but IIRC, they never removed it entirely in Civ III. The only significant danger after the second expansion, however, was right after conquering a city when it was still in revolt. But putting enough units in the city center quelled the risk. There was even a utility someone created to tell you how many units you needed to eliminate the risk of flipping.

If I remember correctly, the most obviously blatant forward settles would also flip eventually, even after all the fixes.

 

[Uberfrog]

While I'm really liking the idea of the governors, "free cities," etc., I'm still trying to wrap my head around a new "loyalty" system. Is it going to be another thing you'll be collecting buckets of? Seems like there's a really narrow wedge of space available there, and I'm hoping it doesn't feel like they're shoehorning something else in just because.. Happiness and Culture (and to a lesser extent tourism) would really be what determine "loyalty," right?

Loyalty doesn't seem to me like it will be a "bucket" quantity (like culture, tourism, science, faith, gold, etc) that is spent on or collected towards a certain outcome, but rather a variable quantity (like amenities or religious pressure). The amount a city has at any given moment can go up or down, and if it goes down below a certain point it is likely to be an issue.

But we really don't have any concrete details yet...

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I have been wondering about this.

Are they global like great people or local like spies? If they are like spies, then the names should change to reflect the Civ.

So, what civs would get Raina, Liyang, and Amani?

Follow-up:

Raina is apparently Bulgarian. Other sources say French or Czech
Liyang is Chinese
Amani is Arabic

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Somewhere in the articles and videos that dropped today, one mentioned that the Government District would get buildings dependent on your government type.

Speculation: each tier of government associates with a building slot in the district.

So the first building slot could have an Autocracy, Oligarchy, or Classical Republic building and the second slot could hold a Merchant Republic, Monarchy, or Theocracy building, etc. And you probably can't put the same building in all three slots or put earlier buildings in later districts or vice versa.

I bet the Classical Republic building is a Forum and the Democracy building is a Parliament. We could probably figure out the rest.

My guess is Courthouse in the Classical Era and after you might could choose the buildings starting with monarchy. Isn't there going to be another ne district as well, so that would require some buildings. Hopefully it is a health district (Medical Branch) with apocathery, hospital and health clinic to go with the medic and supply convoy.

 

[Cerilis]

I have been wondering about this.

Are they global like great people or local like spies? If they are like spies, then the names should change to reflect the Civ.

So, what civs would get Raina, Liyang, and Amani?

Google said Amani is a Swahili/Arabic name. Liyang would probably be chinese. I guess Raina could be several...

 

[nzcamel]

Getting the AI perfect for an incomplete game is premature optimisation.

Yes, that's it. Also, the term "perfect AI" differs a lot for fans and for the majjority of players.

I think we can all agree that at most difficulty levels of the game, settlers shouldn't be moving around unescourted. Yet they still are! Whereas they shouldn't have been from release.
I love VI compared to V...but in a few areas it is an embarrassment.

Maple syrup. Canada is finally a civilization?

Nooooooooo
Brazil & Australia are two modern countries with a limited impact on the world too many

It certainly will if they don't address the issues. If.
I maintain that a large proportion of their effort for the first year
has been on the artistic/audio side of things. That is largely
complete and so more effort can be put into other aspects.
I trust they will, which is as much a guess as your pessimism.
In my favour, I have that they won't want to harm the franchise by
avoiding those issues for much longer. I see nothing in favour of your
opinion, just gloom. Unless you also think they will do something about
issues present and ones that will arise.

I prefer how Soren talked about it being done - the mechanics and AI etc were the important early focus. Pretty things could come in later. How could that get lost??

 

[Uberfrog]

While I like the new units they are adding, it seems like it only does half the job of filling up the various gaps.

I'm happy they're adding the Pike & Shot to upgrade the Pikeman, and hopefully stop Knights outstaying their welcome. But what about the equally large gap between Knights and Tanks, or Horsemen and Cavalry? Are mounted units essentially going to have to hide in fear for the entire Renaissance and Industrial eras?

 

[Rosty K]

While I like the new units they are adding, it seems like it only does half the job of filling up the various gaps.

I'm happy they're adding the Pike & Shot to upgrade the Pikeman, and hopefully stop Knights outstaying their welcome. But what about the equally large gap between Knights and Tanks, or Horsemen and Cavalry? Are mounted units essentially going to have to hide in fear for the entire Renaissance and Industrial eras?

Oh, and will they finally remove the portal from Classical to Renaissance?

 

[Scaramanga]

Each civ would probably have their own named governors.

For example, only China can have Zhang the Builder, while England can have Bob the Builder (by name only; it's just as an example). Japan can have Norichika the Diplomat, while Rome can have Marcus the Diplomat for another example.

America can have Ahnold, the Governator.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

While I like the new units they are adding, it seems like it only does half the job of filling up the various gaps.

I'm happy they're adding the Pike & Shot to upgrade the Pikeman, and hopefully stop Knights outstaying their welcome. But what about the equally large gap between Knights and Tanks, or Horsemen and Cavalry? Are mounted units essentially going to have to hide in fear for the entire Renaissance and Industrial eras?

That is by design. By staggering upgrades, certain unit classes are stronger in some eras but not others. That way an army is forced to diversify its unit types to be effective throughout the game. And UUs that occur between upgrades have a window of opportunity that doesn't exist for generic units of the same class.

 

[Cerilis]

While I like the new units they are adding, it seems like it only does half the job of filling up the various gaps.

I'm happy they're adding the Pike & Shot to upgrade the Pikeman, and hopefully stop Knights outstaying their welcome. But what about the equally large gap between Knights and Tanks, or Horsemen and Cavalry? Are mounted units essentially going to have to hide in fear for the entire Renaissance and Industrial eras?

I personally hope the Pike and Shot takes the place of the Musketmen at gun powder, along with its graphics for the shot-part , and the Musketmen gets moved to rifling and updated with a Line infantry graphic. Also, pikemen tech maybe a bit earlier/compulsory.

 

[dataswallow]

This is a relatively minor quibble, but does it bother anyone else that the governors seem to be named as individuals (Raina the Financier) instead of as categories (economic governor)? It seems odd for the same dozen or so individual governors to be in use across every civ in the game and across every era.

Additionally, I've been thinking about the loyalty system, and I'm curious as to whether the recent religious view changes were inspired by and/or preparation for it. Loyalty may well have its own map mode, and city to city pressure, and time until city "flipping" will both be important to show.

This is just me guessing, but I think the system is more like how the spy system works. Each governor is categorized into a specialized field ("Financier" for economy-based governors, for instance) and are given random "Names" according to the civilization you are playing. (So the list of governor names would be like "Tom, Sam, Linda" for America, but "Akagi, Kobayashi, Nakamura" for Japan)

 

[Siptah]

Oh, and will they finally remove the portal from Classical to Renaissance?

With the emphasis on eras and what you do in them, I can imagine that beelining possibilities will be reduced. Or even made impossible by a system that forces you to research 60% of the techs in an era before you can select one from the next.

 

[Cerilis]

With the emphasis on eras and what you do in them, I can imagine that beelining possibilities will be reduced. Or even made impossible by a system that forces you to research 60% of the techs in an era before you can select one from the next.

They way I understood it, "eras" for dark/golden ages are different from tech/culture eras.

 

[nzcamel]

While I like the new units they are adding, it seems like it only does half the job of filling up the various gaps.

I'm happy they're adding the Pike & Shot to upgrade the Pikeman, and hopefully stop Knights outstaying their welcome. But what about the equally large gap between Knights and Tanks, or Horsemen and Cavalry? Are mounted units essentially going to have to hide in fear for the entire Renaissance and Industrial eras?

It does seem odd that they didn't address the gap between knights and tanks at the same time. I'd like to not keep knights beyond their welcome...but you have no choice.

That is by design. By staggering upgrades, certain unit classes are stronger in some eras but not others. That way an army is forced to diversify its unit types to be effective throughout the game. And UUs that occur between upgrades have a window of opportunity that doesn't exist for generic units of the same class.

Having said that I agree with Eagle that the staggered upgrade path is worth them trying to keep.

 

[Siptah]

I spy something interesting if you squint at the poster.

View attachment 481816

Compare with:

This is Mount Nemrut in Cappadocia. Seems a pretty close match if you ask me.

I don‘t find the evidence that convincing, but I‘d love to. Always one of my favorite places in the world. Would be awesome to have the tomb of Antiochos as a wonder that can be built on a mountain.

 

[Siptah]

They way I understood it, "eras" for dark/golden ages are different from tech/culture eras.

Oh, I didn‘t catch that. I thought they would be connected.

 

[Cerilis]

Oh, I didn‘t catch that. I thought they would be connected.

I'm not sure about that though. I still didnt understand how those eras come to be then. ^^"

Particular quote from the blog:
"In the Civilization VI base game, we have the idea of a “player era” – how far a player has advanced on their tech or civics tree. In this expansion, systems are very much tied to the idea of the “game era,” which is determined by individual player advancement and a few other behind-the-scenes adjustments."