[R&F] Rise and Fall General Discussion Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I die a little inside every time when I see the ahistoric portrayal of Seowons as generating large amounts of science when in reality they were just Neo-Confucian schools that trained the Parasitic upper class (Yangban).

Seowons flourished during the Joseon Dynasty period in Korea (1392 AD to 1895 AD)

We can see the end result by the closing of the 19th Century in Korea with literacy rates well below 5% (World average was 20% and the USA was 89%) and an average life expectancy of about 23 years. (America’s 41 years and Europe 43 years) If anything, Seowons should give culture and not science.

To be fair shouldn't all Campuses, especially the libraries and universities be giving some sort of culture as well? I mean there aren't just scientists walking around on campuses all the time. There are Art, Music, Theater, and Language Departments.

 

[agonistes]

I’ve warned my wife what’s happening next week. After 20 years of marriage she actually enjoys the time to herself.

I consider myself a lucky man!

My xwife and I enjoyed civ ii together. Then she beat me in pvp. So I banned her.

edit: not why we divorced!

edit2: or is it???

 

[Thormodr]

You seem to know more about Korean history than me. I don't question it too much, but why is Korea portrayed as a scientific powerhouse in this series? People just seem to take it at face value at this point that Korea will have science bonuses.

Well, I lived in South Korea for over 6 years and have studied Korean history somewhat. I’m no expert, by any means, but I have read a number of books and talked to some historians when I was there.

I think portraying Korea as a scientific powerhouse is just Firaxis being lazy. It almost looks like they handed it over to 2K Korea and let them design it. Lol.

Could be that they very well know that Hyper Nationalist Koreans (It is a big problem there) will snap up the expansion seeing that Korea is so overpowered. Science is still King in Civ. So it could be a $$$ decision.

Personally, I’d love to see Korea lean more toward culture. Even next to the Cultural powerhouse China, they managed to remain distinct. Also, they should get big bonuses diplomatically being the “Shrimp between two Whales”. The idea being that they survived existing between two powerful neighbours in China and Japan. I’d lean towards those areas and hopefully in Civ VII, they will.

 

[Thormodr]

To be fair shouldn't all Campuses, especially the libraries and universities be giving some sort of culture as well? I mean there aren't just scientists walking around on campuses all the time. There are Art, Music, Theater, and Language Departments.

It’s a fair point.

I guess since they divided the tech trees, they wanted distinct districts.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Personally, I’d love to see Korea lean more toward culture. Even next to the Cultural powerhouse China, they managed to remain distinct. Also, they should get big bonuses diplomatically being the “Shrimp between two Whales”. The idea being that they survived existing between two powerful neighbours in China and Japan. I’d lean towards those areas and hopefully in Civ VII, they will.

Personally we needed a science Civ anyway. That being said this version of Korea has gone a little bit more cultural than the previous version with Seondeok's ability. Granted it's not much but it's a start.
I also just looked it up and apparently the Civ 4's Seowon provided culture as well as science. It being in conjunction with a Confucian shrine I would have thought maybe it would have produced faith as well though this time around.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It’s a fair point.

I guess since they divided the tech trees, they wanted distinct districts.

Yes in order have some form of literature in our campuses we either need a Great Library or Oxford.

 

[Thormodr]

Personally we needed a science Civ anyway. That being said this version of Korea has gone a little bit more cultural than the previous version with Seondeok's ability. Granted it's not much but it's a start.
I also just looked it up and apparently the Civ 4's Seowon provided culture as well as science. It being in conjunction with a Confucian shrine I would have thought maybe it would have produced faith as well though this time around.

Well, I think cultural is a step in the right direction, IMHO.

Could have given Korea a bonus to loyalty, as well.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yes in order have some form of literature in our campuses we either need a Great Library or Oxford.

Ha, I always wondered why you couldn't store Great Writing in, oh I don't know, a library. I guess they are just for the mediocre works of writing.

 

[Morgawr]

That is Feburary 9 here in my region (SEA) -- according to Steam. I expect I would be able to play it after work! And the best thing is, it will be a weekend full of R&F!

Edit: As per time converter, it should be downloadable in my region by Feb 8, 1PM.

I'm in SEA too which means it should unlock Feb 8, 12pm for me. So why is my steam saying Feb 9? I hope that's a mistake they will fix otherwise I will be furious. I am taking the day off, getting breakfast running chores updating graphics driver etc in the morning and read to go at noon!!

 

[sonicmyst]

I'm in SEA too which means it should unlock Feb 8, 12pm for me. So why is my steam saying Feb 9? I hope that's a mistake they will fix otherwise I will be furious. I am taking the day off, getting breakfast running chores updating graphics driver etc in the morning and read to go at noon!!

One thing I will do is to make sure my laptop is turned on before I go to work, then connect to it remotely and check Steam if the game is ready for download. Hopefully when I get back home it's done and ready to play.

#HypeTrain

 

[Zaarin]

You seem to know more about Korean history than me. I don't question it too much, but why is Korea portrayed as a scientific powerhouse in this series? People just seem to take it at face value at this point that Korea will have science bonuses.

Probably because Sejong was known as a patron of science and because Korea is a major scientific player right now.

Well, I lived in South Korea for over 6 years and have studied Korean history somewhat. I’m no expert, by any means, but I have read a number of books and talked to some historians when I was there.

I think portraying Korea as a scientific powerhouse is just Firaxis being lazy. It almost looks like they handed it over to 2K Korea and let them design it. Lol.

Could be that they very well know that Hyper Nationalist Koreans (It is a big problem there) will snap up the expansion seeing that Korea is so overpowered. Science is still King in Civ. So it could be a $$$ decision.

Personally, I’d love to see Korea lean more toward culture. Even next to the Cultural powerhouse China, they managed to remain distinct. Also, they should get big bonuses diplomatically being the “Shrimp between two Whales”. The idea being that they survived existing between two powerful neighbours in China and Japan. I’d lean towards those areas and hopefully in Civ VII, they will.

Yes, I would love a culture-focused Korea.

Ha, I always wondered why you couldn't store Great Writing in, oh I don't know, a library. I guess they are just for the mediocre works of writing.

No, we store our writing in Amphitheaters. I don't know where we put on plays. I guess at the Bolshoi Ballet.

 

[Thormodr]

Probably because Sejong was known as a patron of science and because Korea is a major scientific player right now.


Yes, I would love a culture-focused Korea.


No, we store our writing in Amphitheaters. I don't know where we put on plays. I guess at the Bolshoi Ballet.

It is true that Korea had a golden age after the Yuan Dynasty collapsed in large part due to the Black Death. A lot of technology was diffused to Korea during the Yuan Dynasty and after its collapse. The Koreans, to their credit, while not inventing the technology, improved upon them.

However, Neo-Confucianism held sway and quickly Korea regressed. Joseon Dynasty Korea quickly became like what we can see in North Korea today. Sejong was opposed by the parasitic upper class (Yangban) who wished to maintain their elite status in society. With disastrous results for the country.

Just as an example, Hangul (the Korean written script) was “invented” by King Sejong. In reality, he modified the Phags Pa script which was invented by a Tibetan monk under commission by Khublai Khaan. The Yangban heavily criticized Sejong for this and derided him for using a barbaric script. As a consequence, after Sejong died, Hangul was not used much at all. It was not adopted as the national script until 1895 when Korea was finally freed from China’s grasp by Japan. The Yangban used Hanja (Chinese script) and wished to keep a stranglehold on literacy. An illiterate population is easier to control.

As to South Korea being a scientific player now (among many countries), this is a very recent thing. Like in the last 3 decades. For a vast majority of their history, they were not a scientific powerhouse. So, seeing Korea leading the ranks in science in a vast majority of Civ VI R&F Games is a bit immersion busting for me.

Anyway, yes, I too would love to see a cultural Korea. Add in increased loyalty and diplomatic bonuses, to boot.

 

[Zaarin]

@Thormodr Yep, that's all very true. But the Civ franchise has always been the pop culture version of history, and in particular when Korea was first added in Civ3 it seems that what the country was currently good at seemed to be weighted a lot more heavily than it should be.

While Korea has been near the top of my wishlist and Seondeok my preferred leader, overall I'm disappointed in R&F's portrayal of Korea--but not disappointed enough to not be glad they're back. (I also lived in South Korea for a few years.)

 

[ripple01]

Have there been any announcements regarding the release date for the Mac?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

No, we store our writing in Amphitheaters. I don't know where we put on plays. I guess at the Bolshoi Ballet.

You forgot about Broadway.
According the True Tales of Alternate History, the great works of writing were performed as plays in the Amphitheater they were put in.
And we know that those videos are very reliable sources.
I want to be able to store some in Film Studios and film the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn with the Eine kleine Nachtmusik playing as the movie soundtrack.

 

[bbbt]

Have there been any announcements regarding the release date for the Mac?

On steam, Aspyr has basically said they're working on it, and it would be simultaneous.

 

[Thormodr]

@Thormodr Yep, that's all very true. But the Civ franchise has always been the pop culture version of history, and in particular when Korea was first added in Civ3 it seems that what the country was currently good at seemed to be weighted a lot more heavily than it should be.

While Korea has been near the top of my wishlist and Seondeok my preferred leader, overall I'm disappointed in R&F's portrayal of Korea--but not disappointed enough to not be glad they're back. (I also lived in South Korea for a few years.)

You lived there too. Ah neat.

Yeah, I am disappointed too in the portrayal. Could have done something original and befitting of the country. I have no problem with them being in the game, anyway.

However, like you said, the Civ franchise has always been this way.

Maybe Civ VII will be different.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Well, I lived in South Korea for over 6 years and have studied Korean history somewhat. I’m no expert, by any means, but I have read a number of books and talked to some historians when I was there.

I think portraying Korea as a scientific powerhouse is just Firaxis being lazy. It almost looks like they handed it over to 2K Korea and let them design it. Lol.

Could be that they very well know that Hyper Nationalist Koreans (It is a big problem there) will snap up the expansion seeing that Korea is so overpowered. Science is still King in Civ. So it could be a $$$ decision.

Personally, I’d love to see Korea lean more toward culture. Even next to the Cultural powerhouse China, they managed to remain distinct. Also, they should get big bonuses diplomatically being the “Shrimp between two Whales”. The idea being that they survived existing between two powerful neighbours in China and Japan. I’d lean towards those areas and hopefully in Civ VII, they will.

I've lived here 17.5 years... I think you are spot on the money. Most science here and now, and perhaps in the past, has been adapted from others... perhaps an ability similar to Peter's might have worked as well... but unrelated to trade routes, but rather to diplomacy levels.

 

[Ondolindë]

On steam, Aspyr has basically said they're working on it, and it would be simultaneous.

Unfortunately, it won’t be simultaneous. They’re shooting for early to late March. This is what Aspyr Blair said:

“ We are doing everything we can to be within that time frame, and with luck we will get xplat in there too ” (Jan 16). The time he’s referring to is in response to a question from abSteam user who asked if 3-4 weeks was about right.

"As to Rise and Fall, we start our work well before the release of Windows, but I can confirm we will not be simultaneously shipping with Windows on Feb 8th. We will do our best to get the Mac and Linux versions out soon after." (Jan 25).

What I might be doing is using Nvidia’s GeForce Now to play it on release day among other options. I’m tired of waiting and unfortunately I have become disenchanted with Aspyr, especially after learning that they used resources for the iPad version (which I think it is great in itself) instead of using them to fulfill xplat and release DLC 06 and the Fall Patch soon after.

 

[ferretbacon]

I've lived here 17.5 years... I think you are spot on the money. Most science here and now, and perhaps in the past, has been adapted from others... perhaps an ability similar to Peter's might have worked as well... but unrelated to trade routes, but rather to diplomacy levels.

Alternative CUA - Hermit Kingdom: +15% global culture, -5% global science if you have no declared friends or alliances; for each declared friend or alliance, minus 5% to culture bonus but plus 5% to global science (capped at -5%/+15% respectively).

If you're cut off from the world, your culture blossoms but your science suffers. The more you open up and build relations, the better your science, but your culture wilts.

I dunno, I don't know that much about Korea and have certainly never lived there (much less visited), but this CUA reflects what I'm reading here.