Rise and fall of the roman empire

[the_Monarch]

Indeed your idea sounds more practical, and I can live with those house rules. I was wondering what we would do after dictator perpetuus is built? Maybe jocky for position, something like curring favor with other players, secret email assasination plots, or the old favorite of taking Rome by force (not that this is doable of course...). Maybe dictator for life could be chosen by those who suggested actions netted the most territory/city gain? Or something else, or not at all. Just throwing some ideas out there.

Sounds like you want a multiplayer game like Rome Total war

 

[Drendor]

Ok - I am working on the patch. Try to be done with it tomorrow and hopefully an upload on Friday. We could then start playing Monday!

As much as I love the idea of having 2 players/consuls playing together 10 turns, I don't see how it can be practically done. One thought I had, easier to implement, is that a senate (players) vote must take place everytime Rome wishes to declare war, with a 2/3 majority required to be able to do so. We could add other major decision along this line (building wonders, contracting alliances). Also, a similar 2.3 majority vote of all players could also force the current player out, naming another one to play 5 turns (Dictator anyone?) afterwhich the previous player resumes his remaining turns of play.

House rules:
(1) Barbarian cities locked into ancestral forests must not be claimed in a peace treaty
(2) The same goes with Parthian/Persian cities located on Persian Hearthland terrain
(3) No ROP-rape allowed
(4) 2/3 majority needed for
1. Declaration of war
2. Building a wonder in a specific city
3. Naming a Dictator for 5 turns
(5) Provide basic report of each turn (support costing troops raised, conquests, diplomacy, net income, major builds, etc.)
(6) ...

I would let the Senate decides where war will be waged according to rule 4.1, we don't needed to necessarily follow history (although it should come to this practically).

These suggestions sounds splendid to me.

Should we make a list with the seven players and decide who goes first?

 

[captain beaver]

Hum... I don't see the point of naming a dictator because by the time someone's going to post "Errrr, guys, I think I screwed up. Just lost Rome to Gallia Cisalpina", it's going to be way too late. Except if we reload, but then we simply have to make another player play.
Only reason why we should have a dictator is if we play with 2 consuls. It will mean less bickering and more fighting.

 

[apolytonCivfan]

Ok - I am working on the patch. Try to be done with it tomorrow and hopefully an upload on Friday. We could then start playing Monday!

As much as I love the idea of having 2 players/consuls playing together 10 turns, I don't see how it can be practically done. One thought I had, easier to implement, is that a senate (players) vote must take place everytime Rome wishes to declare war, with a 2/3 majority required to be able to do so. We could add other major decision along this line (building wonders, contracting alliances). Also, a similar 2.3 majority vote of all players could also force the current player out, naming another one to play 5 turns (Dictator anyone?) afterwhich the previous player resumes his remaining turns of play.

House rules:
(1) Barbarian cities locked into ancestral forests must not be claimed in a peace treaty
(2) The same goes with Parthian/Persian cities located on Persian Hearthland terrain
(3) No ROP-rape allowed
(4) 2/3 majority needed for
1. Declaration of war
2. Building a wonder in a specific city
3. Naming a Dictator for 5 turns
(5) Provide basic report of each turn (support costing troops raised, conquests, diplomacy, net income, major builds, etc.)
(6) ...

I would let the Senate decides where war will be waged according to rule 4.1, we don't needed to necessarily follow history (although it should come to this practically).

(3) No ROP-rape allowed

what does this mean?

 

[pinktilapia]

Never tried to experience that myself. If I understand right, this were you first sign a Right of Passage, then position your troops at key areas in your 'friend's' territory, then declare war and massacre him in a turn or so.

Bad!

 

[the_Monarch]

How exactly will the feedback be delivered between the current "consul" and the Senate? I mean will he pause after every turn and wait for the Senate to allow him to continue his mandate or will he play all his turns in a row and, in this case he will just present the saves of all his turns and the Senate will decide if a L.O.A.D. is necesarry and someone else will replace him from that turn as a dictator.

Also we still haven't decided the number of turns to be played by each consul. How about the range is between 10 and 20 according to the Senate grade the player receives at the end of his mandate. This could cause some beneficial competiton between players but also some political schemes so it might be both fun and annoying. We should clarify all this stuff to the numbers until Monday as time is running out.

 

[Drendor]

How exactly will the feedback be delivered between the current "consul" and the Senate? I mean will he pause after every turn and wait for the Senate to allow him to continue his mandate or will he play all his turns in a row and, in this case he will just present the saves of all his turns and the Senate will decide if a L.O.A.D. is necesarry and someone else will replace him from that turn as a dictator.

Also we still haven't decided the number of turns to be played by each consul. How about the range is between 10 and 20 according to the Senate grade the player receives at the end of his mandate. This could cause some beneficial competiton between players but also some political schemes so it might be both fun and annoying. We should clarify all this stuff to the numbers until Monday as time is running out.

As Pink suggested earlier I think that the Consul only needs to consult the senate when he commits major actions like declaring war/peace or binding alliances or when a wonder is being built.

I suggest that we all start with 10 turns per person and then we can modify this later when we know eachother better....

 

[Traianus]

I'd agree. One qualification might be considered. 10 turns involves a lot more in the later stages than it does early on. Maybe no. of turns should be staggered with this in mind. Then again, maybe it doesn't matter. Thoughts?

 

[Drendor]

I'd agree. One qualification might be considered. 10 turns involves a lot more in the later stages than it does early on. Maybe no. of turns should be staggered with this in mind. Then again, maybe it doesn't matter. Thoughts?

Yes we could reduce the number of turns to 5 when our empire has reached it´s peak sometime AD. We don´t wanna reduce the turns too much though as I think that each one of us feels like they wanna have time to acomplish something during each and own turn

 

[the_Monarch]

Agreed. But once the empire has reached it's peak there shouldn't be much except for defensive maneuvers at least for a while. My opinion is that the number of turns should increase rather than decrease during Pax Romana. But it's not that important anyway. So should we draw strings to see who goes first?

As Pink suggested earlier I think that the Consul only needs to consult the senate when he commits major actions like declaring war/peace or binding alliances or when a wonder is being built

Well... yeah, but I mean this will have to be done before he starts playing, right? I mean he gets the sav and states clearly that on turn 2 or 3 he will attack because the Senate will only gather between the mandates, right? Or would you rather go for a broadcast play where we all IM each other and take decisions on spot? This could be hard to achieve for 7 people on all continents. And for him to stop playing every couple of turns to post a thread and wait days for 2/3 of us to give him the right to build Imperium Pompeianus sounds like a waste of time. Wonders (except for the negative ones like Crux Iesii) should be built right away, and most of them are buildable only in the proper place anyway. I think research priorities are more important, but that can be decided earlier on and only the tax rate should fluctuate. Lot's of decisions so we need to come together and think about this seriously.

 

[Drendor]

My suggestion of first ten turns:

1:th to 3:th turn wipe out Pyrrhus and capture his cities with as few casualties as possible. (there should be no casualties with the troop advantage we have on easy biq) Try to build foreign miles socius in the new cities?
Build velites and mercator in some latin cities

4:th to 6:th turn. Move forces close to Syracuse and Bovanium and declare war on the western greeks. We need Syracuse fast for the wheat and fine timber.
Start build Mare Nostrum, maybe in Neapel? When first punic war is researched.

After this we could either go after the celts in northern Italy or declare war on Carthage and try to capture the whole of Sicilly.
The advantage of going after Carthage right after western greeks is that our main army is already positioned on Sicilly.
The advantage of waiting is that we have had time to build Mare Nostrum to get some corvux who can capture enemy ships.
By waiting and going north for the celts and later east for the Illyrian cities we boost our production alot because those cities have little corruption and should be conquered as soon as possible to get maximum benefit for the empire.

I also think that we should build tons of velites and miles socius.
The miles socius have the same combat values as the legion but two hp less.
But it costs 1 pop instead of 3!!!!!!!!!! and 55 shields instead of 60. When Marius arrives all of our Miles can be upgraded to regular legions.
We have to build some legions for road building though. The mlies auxillary cant build roads....


thoughts?

 

[Gaias]

So the only way this Consul and Senate is going to realistically work is if the voting is limited to just voting for dictator? We all play our alloted Nth turns as we see fit, and when we decide its time to go to war (or the AI declares war on us), we vote to see who the dictator will be to lead the war effort? I could not really see it being very effective if a dictator plays 5 turns and then it is my turn to play. Instead of having a exact time the dictator is in for power, would it not be better to have them stay in power (playing) until such time peace is declared (or the AI is conquered)?

 

[captain beaver]

Personnally, I don't think the concept of Senate, Consul or Dictator will work in a succession game of 7 persons. It will take a lot of time and most decisions (such as building wonders) are very straightforward. I say, let's try, at least for our first SG, a normal game where every 10 turns we switch player (and maybe 20 turns in the latter periods). Only usefulness of a senate comes when we need to declare war. At the same time, the mandate for war should include the power for the current player to make all necessary alliances. Sure, sometimes we are going to sign unwanted alliances, but that can reflet bad consuls or bad emperors. Plus in times of war, you don't question autority .

Suggestion for the first 10 turns :
1 to 3 : Conquer Epirus with as little losses as possible and hurry Legio/Miles Socius in conquered cities. On the second turn, when we have possibly captured at least 1, if not the 2 cities of Epirus, sign ROP with all nations except Cartago and Magna Graecia.
Micromanage : this is about the only part that I micromanage. Build in Neapolis the most costly thing (60 shield). Make sure that either a) it will be done in 12 turns in order to change it to Mare Nostrum at the exact time we discover First Punic war or b) build a little something and after that be sure to have the 60 shields accumulated for the 12 turn. We can change production when we discover a tech by clicking on What's the big picture and then Domestic Advisor and then change Neapolis' production which will be completed as soon as you quit the Advisors panel.
4 to 12 : Well, Magna Graecia can be a usefull ally in a war against Cartago as they will lose Syracusa to Cartago (at least in my games they always do). What I normally do, is put most of my army in Messana and wait for Cartago's declaration of war (we need to make it very angry by demanding a city in tribute for 10-20 times, they declare war soon after). After a few turns, I take Syracuse and Panormus. Meanwhile, the other Consular army with a couple of Miles Socius go after Corsica and Sardeigne. If we play this right, by the end of the war, 250BC-230BC, we can have all western Mediterranean islands, Sicile and Valentia Edetanorum. If we are lucky, the greeeks are going to lose everything excep bovianum and we can take their coastal cities and declare war on them right after. Anyways, the first 20 turns are going to be critical for the rest of the game. So, in case of continuous bad luck, we can esaily restart.

 

[pinktilapia]

Capt Beaver, I wrote this at the same time as you posted. Let's feel free to ignore my complex throughts below! Your suggestion is actually wise. A simple SG would do well. Anyway, since I typed it, so I post it:

--------------------------

Players

1) Drendor
2) ApolytonCivFan
3) Traianus
4) Pinktilapia
5) Captain Beaver
6) Gaias
7) The Monarch

House Rules

1) Barbarian cities locked into ancestral forests must not be claimed in a peace treaty
2) Parthian/Persian cities with a Parthian Garrison must not be claimed in a peace treaty
3) No ROP-rape allowed

Democracy Rules (at least for the Republican period of the game)

1) Once the current player get the SAV, he submit a plan of action for his forthcoming turns
2) Action plan must includes the following:
a. Overall objectives of the consulship
b. Diplomacy (declaration of war, alliance, tentative to sign a peace, RoP)
c. Commission/cancellation of wonders
d. Research to be undertaken
3) Other actions are up to the player (building for troops and improvements; tax rate, move of units, etc.)
4) Action plan must be endorsed by the Senate, with at least a 50% of votes (current player do not vote), otherwise modified until accepted
5) The player then undertakes his consulship for 10 turns (unless modified, see below), reporting main events and achievements every turn.
6) The player does not need to wait for feedback when submitting his turn report and can proceed at his pace. However, if he want to undertake some of the actions mentioned in (2) not previously accepted by the Senate, he will need to submit these and wait for approval. A carefully designed action plan will ensure this is not needed.
7) At the end of his consulship, a detailed report is submitted. If the player is found having done some of the actions mentioned in (2) without approval of the Senate, he can be sanctioned a certain number of disapproval points (if 50% of Senate approve so). The Senate can judge his consulship (through again a 50% majority):
a. Outstanding (1 or more approval points)
b. Good (no effect)
c. Negative (1 or more disapproval points)
8) For each point received (MAX 5 approval or sanction points), the player next consulship length will be modified (e.g. with 2 approval points, the next consulship will be 12 turns; with 3 disapproval points, his next consulship would be 7 turns)
9) During the consulship of a player (or at the end of it), the Senate can evoke a state of emergency (based on the current player reports, with a >50% majority). A Dictator will play until the Senate revokes the state of emergency (with a 50% majority, dictator do not vote). After which normal playing sequence is continued.


--------------------


Is that acceptable? Clear? Comments? Modifications?
I suggest the thread creator starts on Monday (if patch uploaded for I am facing a bug in game that seems difficult to fix, otherwise the update is completed actually).

So first (for 10 turns): Drendor. Next can be selected randomly, or following the list of post in this thread as above. Ok, back to my update!

 

[the_Monarch]

I still favor the Senate for flavor . It will always be comprised by 6 people so a vote of only 3 (4 if you must) will be enough to asure a majority. This can be abolished later by the time of Marius or Sylla or if we see it doesn't work at all or it's becoming a formality. But it could be fun.

Ok. Strategically I think captain beaver's 10 turns are perfectly sound. My personal suggestion would be to hurry Foreign Legions rather than Miles Socius. 2hps can make a difference and you won't be able to train new "priceless" foreign legions from Tarentum and Croton once the time passes. Save a place (or two) in the second consular army for one of those FLs. Also for better record we should number the legios and rename the consulars: Consular Iulii and Consular Brutii for example. You should load if you lose any of them .

Research path is clear for now. The only time when I chose to bypass a tech was when it envolved an army generating wonder go obsolete but that's later on. If the First Punic War ends up with all cities on the islands (including Palma) and Valentia Edetanorum I think the player should receive maximum votes. There should be this incentive, in my opinion. One less city or army should count as a -1 on the grade. Also the mandate should be extended if war takes too long to continue with a maximum of 2 turns (this should be the Dictator like mandate if you ask me and it should be deducted from the next consular mandate - the consul will become dictator at his own will but all abuses should be avoided). Consuls should not be able to declare war in their last 2 turns to avoid stalling (unless they are sure to win in 2 turns ). What's the purpose: basically a safe, flexible and easy transition that avoids leaving the conflicts for others to solve. Only major wars should be left unsolved in a mandate.

So as not to waste time, and since I agree that that there should be a senate vote every 10 turns to decide the strategy involved, (maibe even beforehand we receive the chronicles to hurry things up) I vote positive for pink's suggestion about the consulship. But let's try to keep it simple. Also I think that, since we are seven, we should all have "a day of consulship" each. Play in the morning (GMT) and discuss with the Senate in the afternoon-till night. I understand there should be some time problems but no vote requires unanimous presence so as soon as 3 have voted positively it should pass. The grades will have to be given by all 6 so an average could be made but the next round will be only in a week so there is plenty of time for the grade to be claculated. Sounds fair to you all?

 

[the_Monarch]

To make things faster, point 2 could/should be discussed beforehand and point 6 I suggest should be abolished. He should make any changes he sees fit (the consul is not a puppet) and the grade will determine if he was right or wrong to do so. The report should be in one single post, including:
-tax rate adopted (from...BC-to...BC)
-wonders started/built
-diplomatic changes (including foreign to foreign)
-newly conquered/lost cities
-newly built/lost legios (should be hard to keep track for all other units
-any notes (future recommendations, hints, bugs etc)
all the saves should be kept in archive for further examination so as to be fairly graded. lol: I deliberatley wanted to sound bureaucratic here but maibe it's not a bad idea to have them for backup)

 

[Drendor]

I will be gone this weekend but I agree with Pinks last thread.

I can begin our quest for territory on monday evening.


D

 

[Gaias]

I concur with the guidelines that Pink has given.

 

[apolytonCivfan]

i agree, everything looks good. lets start on monday, plunder the world on tuesday

 

[the_Monarch]

This might be interesting although a bit too complicated for our SG.http://demogame.civfanatics.net/