Rising Tide: How do you imagine the hybrid Affinities?

[Galgus]

Was looking it up recently trying to put together a unit list in progress for the three secondary affinities, and it was outright uncanny how well it fit.

Generally I think it would be cool if most of the hybrid affinity units used both strategic resources, though that may not be practical.
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I love the idea of a swarm like that, but I'm not sure how to represent it in gameplay terms.

Perhaps there would be some central hub/ queen that must be destroyed to stop the swarm?

 

[DefiantMars]

What if there is the Tier 1 Affinty unit (Xeno Swarm, Battle Suit, CNDR level) is the base swarm unit (graphically) and the next Tier unit (Xeno Calvary, Aegis, CARVR) would be the Hub/Queen. That way the Queen could function similar to a Great General, where it would confer bonuses to nearby units. I don't know just a thought.

 

[Galgus]

Perhaps it could be a deployable unit without a traditional attack that heals all allies in a three tile radius for 10 hp points a turn while damaging enemies for that amount.

The Queen's drones would function as semi-organic repair, medic, and attack drones.

Perhaps that should be made non-stacking.

 

[iki]

It honestly depends we already know that possibly the tier 1 unit for Purity /Supremacy is going to be a human handling a swarm of robots or something similar akin to the Xeno swarm.

 

[EddieTheLion]

I had an idea for harmony/purity sort of similar to Galgus's one, but with the addition that as affinity advances they become "biological supremacists (not as in the supremacy affinity, though they are sort of like that too)" who believe biology is inherently superior to "traditional" machinery, and replace as much of their non-living tech with organic technology* as they can. Unfortunately this would require they get special graphics for civilian/embarked units, improvements and to have wonder graphics turned off, which Firaxis probably won't do because for some reason the people who made BE seem to be really reluctant to make things immersive like that (I mean, look at their poor excuses for affinity based leader appearance, and recycling all the dialogue from Civ5 instead of giving leaders their own lines ). I really like the idea of it aesthetically though, Imagine their lands as this writhing landscape of synthetic organisms designed to sustain (trans)humans, with them growing rather than building or manufacturing stuff.

My idea for supremacy/harmony was a hive mind affinity, even more so than harmony already is with transcendence, basically picture the Borg. Of course that would also require extra work to not break immersion (special leader dialogue for when they have joined the hivemind).

I imagine that hybrid affinities will be able to go for the affinity victories of either of their components, so I tried to make it fit that.

*this does not necessarily mean "everything looks like an animal or plant", picture like this: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/460db3c4051b7

 

[Lord Tirian]

I see "organic technology" more as Supremacy/Harmony as Harmony already goes towards that direction (see the Rocktopus) with Supremacy providing the impulse to integrate even more artificial elements like metal bones or ceramic skin. Supremacy/Harmony, in my view, is basically going all "H.R. Giger" (but perhaps a little less... creepy). Ideologically, it comes from seeing the need to decouple yourself from the environment (Supremacy) but by growing your perfect organism (Harmony).

Harmony/Purity, I see more as genetic modification of local life but using Earth genetics - it's all about uplifting the planet with "superior" Terran life, so humanity acts as "shepard" for the local life, they would have hybridised farms and xeno-hybrids: raptor bugs, dragon dolphins and falcon drones. Ideologically, that comes from seeing humanity as superior (Purity) - but instead of displacing native life, it has to be brought into the fold (Harmony).

Purity/Supremacy was already outlined by Firaxis as robots serving humanity. I think aesthetically, this is a great chance to actually go for that "clean sci-fi future" look that is absent from Civ:BE at the moment: buildings with gleaming white skyscrapers, sleek, rounded machinery - think Space Apple.

 

[iki]

I see "organic technology" more as Supremacy/Harmony as Harmony already goes towards that direction (see the Rocktopus) with Supremacy providing the impulse to integrate even more artificial elements like metal bones or ceramic skin. Supremacy/Harmony, in my view, is basically going all "H.R. Giger" (but perhaps a little less... creepy). Ideologically, it comes from seeing the need to decouple yourself from the environment (Supremacy) but by growing your perfect organism (Harmony).

Isn't the Rocktopus just some sort of grown creation like the Titan? Instead of some sort of Zerg monster?

 

[EddieTheLion]

I had an idea for harmony/purity sort of similar to Galgus's one, but with the addition that as affinity advances they become "biological supremacists (not as in the supremacy affinity, though they are sort of like that too)" who believe biology is inherently superior to "traditional" machinery, and replace as much of their non-living tech with organic technology* as they can. Unfortunately this would require they get special graphics for civilian/embarked units, improvements and to have wonder graphics turned off, which Firaxis probably won't do because for some reason the people who made BE seem to be really reluctant to make things immersive like that (I mean, look at their poor excuses for affinity based leader appearance, and recycling all the dialogue from Civ5 instead of giving leaders their own lines ). I really like the idea of it aesthetically though, Imagine their lands as this writhing landscape of synthetic organisms designed to sustain (trans)humans, with them growing rather than building or manufacturing stuff.

Actually now that I think about it all the new graphics for that probably is too much to reasonably expect for one affinity. Doesn't excuse the dialogue and leader appearances, though

 

[bite]

Harmony/Purity - my hope is it will be more about respect than the two separate affinities, like respecting the heritage of Earth, whilst respecting the environment of the new world we now live on

 

[Galgus]

I had an idea for harmony/purity sort of similar to Galgus's one, but with the addition that as affinity advances they become "biological supremacists (not as in the supremacy affinity, though they are sort of like that too)" who believe biology is inherently superior to "traditional" machinery, and replace as much of their non-living tech with organic technology* as they can. Unfortunately this would require they get special graphics for civilian/embarked units, improvements and to have wonder graphics turned off, which Firaxis probably won't do because for some reason the people who made BE seem to be really reluctant to make things immersive like that (I mean, look at their poor excuses for affinity based leader appearance, and recycling all the dialogue from Civ5 instead of giving leaders their own lines ). I really like the idea of it aesthetically though, Imagine their lands as this writhing landscape of synthetic organisms designed to sustain (trans)humans, with them growing rather than building or manufacturing stuff.

My idea for supremacy/harmony was a hive mind affinity, even more so than harmony already is with transcendence, basically picture the Borg. Of course that would also require extra work to not break immersion (special leader dialogue for when they have joined the hivemind).

I imagine that hybrid affinities will be able to go for the affinity victories of either of their components, so I tried to make it fit that.

*this does not necessarily mean "everything looks like an animal or plant", picture like this: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/460db3c4051b7

I do like the idea of organic factories happening at some point - way back before Starships was revealed to be a lightweight mobile game I was hoping Harmony would have such technology at that point.

 

[Promethian]

I like your ideas Galgus but my imagination took me a different direction on Purity/Harmony. For me Purity has always had the "don't alter humans directly" aspect as the most important aspect. Purity thus terraforms and doesn't care about maintaining the planet. Harmony is about living in Harmony with planet and has decided to alter humanity to accomplish this. Purity/Harmony I think would be about using bioengineering to create symbiotic organisms that allow humans to stay "pure" but also live in harmony with the planet. As an example I imagine an organism that attaches to the head and snakes tendrils into the nose to filter air.

 

[Galgus]

I like your ideas Galgus but my imagination took me a different direction on Purity/Harmony. For me Purity has always had the "don't alter humans directly" aspect as the most important aspect. Purity thus terraforms and doesn't care about maintaining the planet. Harmony is about living in Harmony with planet and has decided to alter humanity to accomplish this. Purity/Harmony I think would be about using bioengineering to create symbiotic organisms that allow humans to stay "pure" but also live in harmony with the planet. As an example I imagine an organism that attaches to the head and snakes tendrils into the nose to filter air.

The three big things that define Purity to me are a hesitance to alter the human form, widescale embrace of terraforming, and a desire to preserve Earth's heritage.

Harmony to me is about prioritizing adapting to thrive on the planet, studying the planet closely, and a desire to preserve the planet. (They would say they are avoiding another Great Mistake, in my head.)

I can see that version of Purity/ Harmony, but in my opinion altering humanity is an equivalent breach of Purity as altering the environment is to Harmony.

Fundamentally I think each hybrid needs disagreements and agreements with its parent affinities.
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Personally, genetic modification is less creepy than tentacle-face critters.

 

[DefiantMars]

It honestly depends we already know that possibly the tier 1 unit for Purity /Supremacy is going to be a human handling a swarm of robots or something similar akin to the Xeno swarm.

I was thinking more like swarm in the traditional sense of the word. Like mass collections of insects, only in this case - engineered drones that you send into combat and less the "pack" that is the Xeno Swarm. Though for Purity / Supremacy, very much suspect that we see a Human controlled squad of machines. Actually, it makes me think of the Markov Eclipse.

 

[Halbbruder]

What if there is the Tier 1 Affinty unit (Xeno Swarm, Battle Suit, CNDR level) is the base swarm unit (graphically) and the next Tier unit (Xeno Calvary, Aegis, CARVR) would be the Hub/Queen. That way the Queen could function similar to a Great General, where it would confer bonuses to nearby units. I don't know just a thought.

As soon as you mentioned "Queen", instead of thinking of some sort of unit for harmony that functions like a great general, I actually imagined another alien unit like a wolf beetle Queen that is like a walking alien nest but only spawns wolf beetles and gives them between a 50%-100% combat bonus depending on how close they are to the Queen. Alien AI in turn acts aggressively if you have a unit that is too close to the Queen. Queen has something like 20 combat strength.

Purity/harmony affinity, as I previously mentioned, would be a combination of preserving humanity (no alteration) but with a greater respect for the planet when trying to develop. I don't think either affinity is really mutually exclusive from one another.

Here's another issue too: would the affinity quest choices need to change or will better hybrid approach mean we can take various choices rather than stick to the choices that benefit only your preferred affinity?

 

[DefiantMars]

Purity/harmony affinity, as I previously mentioned, would be a combination of preserving humanity (no alteration) but with a greater respect for the planet when trying to develop. I don't think either affinity is really mutually exclusive from one another.

I don't think truly adopting Purity and Harmony together would yield such a... detached or unengaged... vision of humanity (that's Supremacy's thing). The way I see it, this combination of ideologies would result in a mindset of meeting the planet half way. I think Galgus's name, "Synergy" is very appropriate. Its taking the strengths of Old Earth and New Earth and making something that is greater than either. Humanity probably views itself as on top or even in control of its environment, but admits and understands that that it IS part of a system.

I think that many who follow Purity/Harmony would alter themselves with alien material, though I think any alteration to the human genome by the hybrid affinity would obviously be far less extreme than Harmony and barely alter physical appearance, if at all.

Whatever the interpretation is in game, I do agree that if applied, affinities would not be isolated ends but instead would be a triumvirate of poles.

 

[AlpsStranger]

They mentioned that Purity/Supremacy is Humans with robotic servants. I suppose that Purity/Harmony will be Humans with alien pets.

Harmony/Supremacy is the real wildcard. I suppose that it's genetically modified humans with cybernetic implants.

I think if you go Harmony/Supremacy you can take the fig leaf off and stop with this "human" nonsense.

 

[kipwheeler]

They could at least use a system like Star Drive II, where when picking your research, you have to select 1 out of 3 available techs, the other two becoming unavailable in that particular playthrough. So imagine if, for each tech there were 3 leaf techs, but you could only pick one.

Or running with Doviello's idea in a slightly different direction, it might be interesting if for each tech there were 3 leaf techs, and you can pick one for the current cost listed in the game, but once you've selected it, the remaining two leaf techs each triple their cost to research. If you pick two leaf techs under the same "branch, the last one remaining would then quintruple in cost.

What I like about that revised version is, while it discourages excessive hybridization, it doesn't limit it completely. That might also help somewhat for balance if the CivBE designers decide to give the hybrid affinity units equivalent powers to specialized affinities. 18/0/0 affinity should not currently have units in equivalent in strength to, say, 9/9/0 affinity, since the "18" takes so much longer to achieve via research points under the current model. With this tweak, the total research expenditure would be a little more comparable, since the low-hanging fruit closer to the center of the web would increase in cost as you plucked other leaf-techs off the branch. Just a thought.

 

[Galgus]

A good question is if they are going to add new victory quests based on Hybrid affinities, like rebuild Earth's biosphere for Purity / Harmony.

This may be outdated, but I tried to make a list earlier.

Mostly I would like more options for the note the game goes out on, the prelude to humanity's future.

 

[legalizefreedom]

One thing I haven't seen discussed very much which strikes me as a potential breakthrough is the opening up of the tech web away from strict affinity beelines.

It seems to me the real reason affinity techs are so important is the ability to field powerful units. Obviously victory conditions as well, but I don't focus on "victory" personally (Gemini player at the moment).

So when I have my options for several techs, I ask myself if I can go a little longer without the next tier unit. If so, I can take advantage of another benefit. But ultimately, if I'm feeling the need for stronger units, my hand is forced. The same can be said for victory conditions on higher difficulties.

Many people smarter than I have discussed the lack of real choice regarding veering from the affinity techs. Hybrid affinities should certainly give the player more directions to go and I believe will open at least 2/3 of the tech web up every game.

What do the efficiency experts think?

 

[Ryika]

I'm more of an "efficiency wannabe", but still:
I personally don't really have a problem with mostly being restricted to "only my affinity techs" - the problem I have is being "restricted" to exactly the affinity techs that I need for my victory condition. The core of that issue is really more of a pacing problem, because I can either beeline my victory techs and just win on turn 200, or I can beeline something else and win much later than that. (While there will always be that "one ideal tech", currently the difference in efficiency is just huge).

I think some of that translates rather well into your example of feeling to have to get new unit upgrades - you have the choice between either getting that one thing to get further ahead (or stay in the game) or that other thing that might look cool but ultimately doesn't give you that much "power".

Hybrid Affinities will certainly open up the tech web a lot more (besides probably bringing a lot cool flavor into the game), but by themselves they won't fix the "Beeline to Victory" vs "Take something else that just slows you down" problem. But who knows - pacing was one of the major complaints and Firaxis has tried to make the game take a little longer with the patches we had, so maybe they made some pacing-changes for RT.