Rites of Oghma should kill forests

hbar

hbar

Constant
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Feb 6, 2008
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And improvements. I have a hard time seeing how such an obviously powerful ritual is so ... dainty when it pops. Is latent mana really only lurking under featureless terrain? Are forests and plantations hardy enough to keep the planet from spewing forth its glorious blue crystals?

Rituals should have a risk associated with them. Maybe your farm gets replaced by some mana. Too bad - you shouldn't have built the ritual if you were that close to starving. As it stands, though, there is usually little reason to build it unless you have huge swaths of undeveloped, unforested land that will remain undeveloped for ~40 turns while you ritualize.

If it did change, there would be several options:
-kill only forests
-kill only forests and improvements with no resource
-kill all improvements, even if there is a resource or forest

Personally, I'm for the third option. Mana killed your mithril? Too bad, make it into Earth mana and hope for more.
 
i agree, and voting for the 1st option. Having it wreck your only strategic res. is too much (and possible tough to code). Them popping up regardless of forests is doable though. The issue with them popping up regardless of improvements: they could destroy world improvements, which would kinda suck
 
I say let it destroy them all, features, resources, improvements, both normal and world. Price to pay for the pursuit of more magical power.
 
the thing is, the ritual is worldwide. So someone else building the ritual can destroy your improvements
 
Demus said:
the thing is, the ritual is worldwide. So someone else building the ritual can destroy your improvements
Click to expand...

That's not unprecedented. Nature's Revolt affects animals across the world, the Elohim/Sheaim rituals have global effects, etc. The pursuit of raw power is often not convenient for anyone.
 
Forest? Fine. Farms? Sure. Mith? Why would you make it into a useless ritual? You said there should have risks, not be idiotic. If that happened I'm sure the FFH team would eventually remove the ritual in a newer version because no one uses it.

hbar said:
And improvements. I have a hard time seeing how such an obviously powerful ritual is so ... dainty when it pops. Is latent mana really only lurking under featureless terrain? Are forests and plantations hardy enough to keep the planet from spewing forth its glorious blue crystals?

Rituals should have a risk associated with them. Maybe your farm gets replaced by some mana. Too bad - you shouldn't have built the ritual if you were that close to starving. As it stands, though, there is usually little reason to build it unless you have huge swaths of undeveloped, unforested land that will remain undeveloped for ~40 turns while you ritualize.

If it did change, there would be several options:
-kill only forests
-kill only forests and improvements with no resource
-kill all improvements, even if there is a resource or forest

Personally, I'm for the third option. Mana killed your mithril? Too bad, make it into Earth mana and hope for more.
Click to expand...
 
I don't quite understand why mana nodes can't appear on improved or forested land (and not destroy the improvements and forests). It is, after all, perfectly possible to build improvements atop mana nodes or to cast Bloom on a tile with a mana node. The only restricting factor should be resources; mana nodes should be able to appear on every land tile without a resource already present. This might make Rites of Oghma worth casting.
 
:agree: Seconded!
 
but im against killing resources, i would never use it if it did that. but if a random barbarion elementals, treants, and other summons (who would be permenant) would popup with the new mana nodes i think it would make the rite less anticlimactic
 
in CvEventManager.py:
Code: 
		if iProjectType == gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROJECT_RITES_OF_OGHMA'):
			i = 7
			if CyMap().getWorldSize() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('WORLDSIZE_DUEL'):
				i = i - 3
			if CyMap().getWorldSize() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('WORLDSIZE_TINY'):
				i = i - 2
			if CyMap().getWorldSize() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('WORLDSIZE_SMALL'):
				i = i - 1
			if CyMap().getWorldSize() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('WORLDSIZE_LARGE'):
				i = i + 1
			if CyMap().getWorldSize() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('WORLDSIZE_HUGE'):
				i = i + 3
			cf.addBonus('BONUS_MANA',i,'Art/Interface/Buttons/WorldBuilder/mana_button.dds')
in Custom Functions.py:
Code: 
	def addBonus(self, iBonus, iNum, sIcon):
		listPlots = []
		for i in range (CyMap().numPlots()):
			pPlot = CyMap().plotByIndex(i)
			if (pPlot.canHaveBonus(gc.getInfoTypeForString(iBonus),True) and pPlot.getBonusType(-1) == -1 and pPlot.isCity() == False):
				listPlots.append(i)
		if len(listPlots) > 0:
			for i in range (iNum):
				iRnd = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(len(listPlots), "Add Bonus")
				pPlot = CyMap().plotByIndex(listPlots[iRnd])
				pPlot.setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString(iBonus))
				if sIcon != -1:
					iActivePlayer = CyGame().getActivePlayer()
					CyInterface().addMessage(iActivePlayer,True,25,CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_RESOURCE_DISCOVERED",()),'AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,sIcon,ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(),True,True)

in CvPlot.cpp:
Code: 
bool CvPlot::canHaveBonus(BonusTypes eBonus, bool bIgnoreLatitude) const
{
	FAssertMsg(getTerrainType() != NO_TERRAIN, "TerrainType is not assigned a valid value");

	if (eBonus == NO_BONUS)
	{
		return true;
	}

	if (getBonusType() != NO_BONUS)
	{
		return false;
	}

	if (isPeak())
	{
		return false;
	}

	if (getFeatureType() != NO_FEATURE)
	{
		if (!(GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).isFeature(getFeatureType())))
		{
			return false;
		}

		if (!(GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).isFeatureTerrain(getTerrainType())))
		{
			return false;
		}
	}
	else
	{
		if (!(GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).isTerrain(getTerrainType())))
		{
			return false;
		}
	}

	if (isHills())
	{
		if (!(GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).isHills()))
		{
			return false;
		}
	}
	else if (isFlatlands())
	{
		if (!(GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).isFlatlands()))
		{
			return false;
		}
	}

	if (GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).isNoRiverSide())
	{
		if (isRiverSide())
		{
			return false;
		}
	}

	if (GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).getMinAreaSize() != -1)
	{
		if (area()->getNumTiles() < GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).getMinAreaSize())
		{
			return false;
		}
	}

	if (!bIgnoreLatitude)
	{
		if (getLatitude() > GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).getMaxLatitude())
		{
			return false;
		}

		if (getLatitude() < GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).getMinLatitude())
		{
			return false;
		}
	}

	if (!isPotentialCityWork())
	{
		return false;
	}

	return true;
}


I don't see anything here that specifically blocks mana from appearing on improved tiles, although pPlot.canHaveBonus does block mana from appearing on features since the resource's xml define does not have any FeatureBooleans. I think I'll give it FeatureBooleans in my version, for the elves sake.


Also, it is a repeatible ritual in my version.


(I'm also thinking I may remove the if (isPeak()) block from pPlot.canHaveBonus. I'd like mineral resources to appear in peaks, and for peaks to be able to be mined and quarried. I'm thinking it could be cool if Mithril would appear only on peaks.)
 
MagisterCultuum said:
(I'm also thinking I may remove the if (isPeak()) block from pPlot.canHaveBonus. I'd like mineral resources to appear in peaks, and for peaks to be able to be mined and quarried. I'm thinking it could be cool if Mithril would appear only on peaks.)
Click to expand...

I'd see that happening a lot sooner if someone made proper graphics for it - ie. creating definitions for roads (or whatever it is) that makes them hug peaks (or a tunnel graphic) and a hill-side mine graphic. Nothing special, just readjustments of the existing models.
On TOpic: Go Oghma! More nodes, maybe "the emergence of the node has stirred a ... from its rest, Ohgma's not dealing with it" 'events' to go with it.
 
Ksi said:
Forest? Fine. Farms? Sure. Mith? Why would you make it into a useless ritual? You said there should have risks, not be idiotic. If that happened I'm sure the FFH team would eventually remove the ritual in a newer version because no one uses it.
Click to expand...

I agree that it would be a little extreme for the Rites to remove strategic resources, but I'd argue that it doesn't make the ritual useless.

- On a standard map, the ritual produces 7 new nodes. If it is no longer restricted to only unforested, unimproved land, the nodes will have a lot more possible locations. Considering the relative scarcity of mithril, the odds of a node popping underneath any particular resource are quite small.
- Considering the tech required to allow both Rites of Oghma and Mithril Weapons, if it is an issue, you've probably already won. I usually only push one line or the other, and if I'm going for mithril, I'll make due with the mana I've got.
- The ritual will be able to pop under your opponent's resources as well. That can be a big advantage if you've invested heavily in the arcane line, and your neighbor is ready to start cranking out mithril champions.

That being said, I'm not married to the idea of mana overwriting strategic resources, or even any resources. As it stands, not many people build the Rites because of too few useful nodes, but I don't want to go too far in the other direction.

@ MagisterCultuum
I don't see anything here that specifically blocks mana from appearing on improved tiles, although pPlot.canHaveBonus does block mana from appearing on features since the resource's xml define does not have any FeatureBooleans.
Click to expand...

I don't see the block either, but both I've heard both anecdotally and from the team (in the bug thread) that the block exists. I'd guess that its in here:
Spoiler :
Code: 
if (!(GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).isFeature(getFeatureType())))
	{
	return false;
	}

if (!(GC.getBonusInfo(eBonus).isFeatureTerrain(getTerrainType())))
	{
	return false;
	}
But I'm not a modder, so I don't know for sure.
 
I don't think that would block mana from appearing under improvements at all, although it certainly would stop it from appearing in forests. Come to think of it, I believe I've seen the Rites create mana under some of my Towns before.

As I said earlier, I believe that adding this
Code: 
            <FeatureBooleans>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_JUNGLE</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_FOREST</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_FOREST_NEW</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_FOREST_ANCIENT</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_FOREST_BURNT</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_FLAMES</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_SCRUB</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
                <FeatureBoolean>
                    <FeatureType>FEATURE_FLOOD_PLAINS</FeatureType>
                    <bFeature>1</bFeature>
                </FeatureBoolean>
            </FeatureBooleans>
            <FeatureTerrainBooleans>
                <FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
                    <bFeatureTerrain>1</bFeatureTerrain>
                </FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                <FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
                    <bFeatureTerrain>1</bFeatureTerrain>
                </FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                <FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_DESERT</TerrainType>
                    <bFeatureTerrain>1</bFeatureTerrain>
                </FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                <FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType>
                    <bFeatureTerrain>1</bFeatureTerrain>
                </FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                <FeatureTerrainBoolean>
                    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_SNOW</TerrainType>
                    <bFeatureTerrain>1</bFeatureTerrain>
                </FeatureTerrainBoolean>
            </FeatureTerrainBooleans>
to the xml define of BONUS_MANA should make it appear on features just fine.
 
I also like the idea of new mana nodes wrecking improvements... even in adjacent tiles.

While we're at it, how about mages and archmages being sacrificed for hammer contributions to the wonder? Archmages could be double or even triple what mages would give...hell, even adepts could contribute on a slave level.
 
Features yes.
Improvements yes.
Resources no. As you said hbar the odds of it being created over a resource is very small. That makes it all the more unbalancing when it is since it is so rare you can't really plan for or anticipate it.

What about hell terrain? Currently it won't spawn there either.
 
hbar said:
I agree that it would be a little extreme for the Rites to remove strategic resources, but I'd argue that it doesn't make the ritual useless.

- On a standard map, the ritual produces 7 new nodes. If it is no longer restricted to only unforested, unimproved land, the nodes will have a lot more possible locations. Considering the relative scarcity of mithril, the odds of a node popping underneath any particular resource are quite small.
- Considering the tech required to allow both Rites of Oghma and Mithril Weapons, if it is an issue, you've probably already won. I usually only push one line or the other, and if I'm going for mithril, I'll make due with the mana I've got.
- The ritual will be able to pop under your opponent's resources as well. That can be a big advantage if you've invested heavily in the arcane line, and your neighbor is ready to start cranking out mithril champions.
Click to expand...

imagine the rites popping a mana node right ontop of your only source of reagents ;)
 
Demus said:
imagine the rites popping a mana node right ontop of your only source of reagents ;)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I thought of that but didn't mention it because it made my argument weaker :D. I'm now leaning towards not popping resources. Ultimately, though, its not my decision. I just wanted to start this thread to concentrate discussion and generate ideas. I'm tired of seeing "I spent XX turns building the Rites and I didn't get a single new node, even though I own YY% of the land" in the bug thread - its a valid complaint, but not necessarily a bug.
 
I love the idea of being able to sacrifice or otherwise utilise spellcasters for casting rituals.

FFH could use much more in the way of rituals, I'd love to see these being a bigger part of gameplay.

Create spells based on channeling that take 5 turns to cast and add 10 hammer per channeling level to the production of a ritual. So a Mage can produce 20 hammers for Ritual production every 5 turns.
 
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