RLC#3. Genghis Khan.

[TheMeInTeam]

I actually played this nearly to completion. This map is NOT kind. Major spoilers below.

Spoiler :

And it gets started early. Based on t0 information, SIP is actually an obvious choice. Then you see that you make TWO resources unworkable doing so! Cheap, but whatever.

Then you look around. A gold mine is nice, lots of jungle and ZERO rivers + weak commerce leader to control is not nice. Keshik rush? Not when you meet nobody for 15+ turns and would have to travel across jungle a long distance anyway.

And then who are the first two factions we meet? JULIUS AND SHAKA! Trololol. Fortunately, we also meet Darius and SB so at least not everything has gone to hell. Yet. Over on the other side of the world we have a natural spawn-block giving Mansa almost all of the land over Wang. Sigh...

But the takes-the-cake bullcrap of this game is the spawning positioning. Julius not only got 24% of the world's land easily, he also has an empire full of rivers! Shaka, who he declared on, has NO METALS AT ALL. I blink and there's a guy with 33% land (counting vassals) and 20+ cities with much better land quality before I even have rifling in GOOD games, and this isn't a good game...

So my opening on this map, due to low commerce, was to pick up a few wonders (SH, which I didn't care about much, and Oracle, which I really felt we could use given low commerce). Unforunately, I had to pick between IW and Monarchy for oracle. Given the land and that I had no metal + multiple barb cities nearby, I actually took the odd choice and went IW. This actually netted me 2 cities I'd have not gotten otherwise and heroic epic availability, so it was probably the correct choice since trades were still a while away. I then spammed cottages and hoped for the best, using religion to get JC to pleased + asking for 1g between his wars against shaka, then SB (both capitulated) then Darius. Darius beat me to lib...but his tech pace also kept him afloat against the massive Roman empire.

So, with the game winding down, Mansa running toward space/culture and Darius doing the same, JC declares on Darius again, now with lots of rifles. I had no choice but to trade Darius AL extremely favorably (and I was otherwise far behind Darius too so doing that SUCKED) and have him defend himself. However, this was what I felt was my only chance. I had already built infantry and had 7 arty also, prepping for an infantry/arty endwar vs JC. With JC having some stacks trapped fighting darius and his vassals being largely meaningless with rifles and less (JC had infantry), I had to act. I first took the city that JC settled in between all of my cities (freaking ***), shredding a large # of forces he had there.

With no power (no coal FFS I have ~15% land give me a break!) and basically military tech parity against the largest empire in the world, I managed to chip at him, leverage aggressive to run combat II + pinch infantry to roll odds into my favor, and used stack splitting to capture multiple cities and do damage ASAP. Darius eventually bought out of the war. JC demanded a city for peace even after I took FOUR cities, and would only give me 25 gold after I took 5. But, the initial fighting got me a medic III + mobility explorer and the ability to produce level 4 artillery in my heroic epic city (CR III). A 3 move super medic can easily support 2 stacks, and CR III arty is pretty insane. Despite tech "parity", the odds in this war were often resembling a lead; I was frequently opening at ~68% odds with arty on his first defender, killing 15+ units while losing 1 or 2, and then cycling the medic to heal the stack while the other one advanced on another city.

This leap-frog stack split managed to carry all the way through Rome, breaking his 2 vassals away (both quickly capped to me) and finally allowing me to capitulate JC himself.

It's now the late 1800's. Mansa is only about 4 techs from having everything needed for space. Darius has a slight culture lead on him. I have a lot of the world's land/pop but am backwards. Now that the 1200+ war weariness from slaughtering JC's troops is gone, I have turned the culture slider back off and can get Fission in about 7 turns. I will trade it for rocketry, and since MM built manhattan I will be able to hammer out some tactical nukes immediately. I have power now, and a lot of production. However, the immediate priority is to use my standing forces + additional soldiers produced to capitulate the much more advanced Darius after taking his capitol to get UN control. I can win UN outright with just vassals that way.

However, if I run out of time for MM space, I need a plan B, and that plan B is nukes + paratroopers to burn Timbuktu if a ship launches. I should be able to build the ~12 nukes and paratroopers needed in time. Mansa is basically the only threat to win at this point other than me. It's a shame HE didn't build UN; Darius likes me a lot and I could have just won at this point.

I'll have a screenie or two later. This game was hell. I still can't believe I was able to cut down Julius + co with a cottage empire at tech parity and no power. AGG + super arty is that good I guess.

 

[pigswill]

Oh dear, an unkind map, I shall no doubt get completely crushed at an early stage.

The humiliation .

Despite all the divine guidance encouraging me to settle in place I'm going to settle on cowpig and hope there's nice seafood up north and hope even more we have some horses nearby.

 

[Mylene]

Would have moved for the cows too, cos that starting loc screams for blocked seafood and stuffs
Even without knowing the spoilers, could already be blocked east with what we see.
Ph settling always nice, but cows make up for that rather quick so..

 

[cseanny]

Played a bit too and if you settle

Spoiler :

1W and grab TGLightH you can easily expand into 11+ cities guaranteeing yourself Music (while getting CS first) and Lib first too.

So yea, if you settle there the game becomes pretty easy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You would really dump a 2H capitol and lose a turn because 5 tiles *might* have seafood that you can't work?

There is irony here. I can't wait for his reaction once he knows the land.

Edit:

Won UN 1941

Spoiler :

Even with darius, I didn't have enough pop due to stupid mansa sushi. Then he launched the ship 1925 AD. When I declared on him 10 turns later (he didn't have 2nd engine), I had 50 tactical nukes around his shores. Nuke, paratroop, burn, winzor. He retaliated with nukes on me too, but I actually bothered building bomb shelters. Nukes still hurt like hell, just less. However, the whole "he nukes one of my 30+ cities vs me nuking 9 of his 13ish" definitely screwed the balance of voting power, allowing me to nuke my way to a diplomatic victory .

 

[ben-jammin]

Not fun.

Spoiler :

Saw the wasted fish. Then saw all the jungle. Then saw a bunch of the sweet land Augustus was gonna get. I didn't bother playing it out.

 

[Manco Capac]

@ben-jammin
Don't get discouraged that early.
I understand wasting resources like that is cheap from the map normalizer but that kind of things happen.

And it's not like we lose everything, there's still good goodies despite those two food sources loss.

 

[Manco Capac]

So yea, if you settle there the game becomes pretty easy.

If the game is easy, then why not setting a goal to the game.
Yes, most will shout dun, dun, domination, but why not a supra space game at around ~1800 AD or less. You see, the unintelligent and not beautiful Genghis whose appearances are misleading and will roll over everyone and show off his polished thrusters.

Yes, if PigsWill wants it ofc.
Don't really know how works ALC from Sisiutil.

 

[ben-jammin]

@ben-jammin
Don't get discouraged that early.
I understand wasting resources like that is cheap from the map normalizer but that kind of things happen.

And it's not like we lose everything, there's still good goodies despite those two food sources loss.

The land becomes pretty decent once you get to calendar...but getting there would be brutal unless i re-played the entire opening. Probably attempt either the oracle or GLH, otherwise will be falling hopelessly behind in tech.

 

[Smilingrogue]

I am throwing the towel in on this one. I am not yet a good Immortal player to begin with, but this map is a jerk.

@ Pigswill

Don't be discouraged. The map's not un-winnable, but a little thinking out of the box and identifying and jumping on opportunities is required. Good luck!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Obviously the map isn't unwinnable. I eeked out a win even though I played like garbage for a stretch.

 

[cseanny]

Don't get discouraged that early.
I understand wasting resources like that is cheap from the map normalizer but that kind of things happen.

Agreed. Personally I started the game and played only around 10 turns or so and then immediately reloaded, which for me is absolutely no problem. How many times have we or others seen spoilers and already have map knowledge before playing?

You should check out some of AZ live play thru's. One of my recent favorites is his Deity Mana Musa game with Shaka/Justin both becoming fairly big. And guess what? In his first couple of minutes he says....."I've already seen some parts of this game on the forum and have some knowledge of the map".

Obviously the map isn't unwinnable.

Agreed. At 1150 ADish I'm at 17 cities and still pushing Rome with 8 trebs, 36 Rifles, and 9 Mace about and have already demanded Capitulation from a weak Shaka. Should have 20-22 cities and Capitulated Rome in around 12-15 more turns.

 

[Mylene]

You would really dump a 2H capitol and lose a turn because 5 tiles *might* have seafood that you can't work?

...and cos of that cow if i research AH anyways.
You also most likely move towards AIs, which is always better.
Wasting fishies is like wasting wet corn. So i'm taking that serious when i see such starting positions indeed

 

[pigswill]

I've already played a few turns, haven't discovered horses, have met Shaka and Jules and yes the neighborhood is quite jungly but I'd be grateful if any further map information could be spoilered. I'll probably lose but I'd prefer the sheer hopelessness of it all to be revealed gradually as I play.

 

[pigswill]

Like I said I've played a few turns up to AH.

Lost a turn moving settler.

Scout scouted and met Jules' scout from the south west and Shaka's scout from the south. Impis and Praetorians, just as well there ain't any horses visible to tempt me into indiscretion.

The tropical south:

The subtropical north:

No sight of AI borders as yet so there's room to expand imperiously and also room for barbarian hordes to be a nuisance.

There do seem to be a few potentially reasonable sites and even ivory to tempt me into an elepult breakout if we get that far (so we'll get to use gers even if we miss out on keshiks).

There's a bit of coast to the northwest but my curiosity will have to await fishing.

Tech choice is kind of interesting:

No beakers have gone into mining. A few options include archery for early defence, mining for production and fishing>pottery for commerce.

Might move the scout north a bit to see what's to be seen (if she survives the animal onslaught).

Worker due in 2 turns, improve pigs then cows, build one or more warriors depending on timing on first settler.

 

[pigswill]

In the absence of an immediate response I think I'll go for mining. We've got a couple of hills to boost production and bacon butties to support rapid growth. I'll send the scout north so see if fishn'chips wil be on the menu. Hopefully aggressive warriors will serve as initial spawnbusters.

Played another 8 turns taking us up to 3120bc and mining. Scout survived the journey north:

That explains the otherwise cryptic comments about 2 wasted food sources.

Grow to pop 3 in 4 turns, warrior in 4, pigs pastured, cows pastured in 4 turns.

I'm tempted to go for an early settler for the pig ivory spot. It would mean that our 'army' would consist of 1 warrior and 1 scout. When do immortal barbs cross borders? Maybe I should go for archery now instead of fishing.

 

[ben-jammin]

It seems to me that on this map the thing you need most is research, and the tech you really need to get to is calendar. Pyramids are a no-go, oracle is possible, so is great lighthouse. Between those two IMO the lighthouse is more useful, and sailing is required for calendar anyway. If I replay the opening that would be my initial game-plan.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I went oracle, but agree GLH is probably better. You have but is in short supply and you've a leader without econ traits. Sometimes the best way to compensate that is carefully selected wonders...especially when you don't have a viable (IE close) rush target.

I gotta say, meeting Julius then Shaka is always heart warming too .

 

[cseanny]

It seems to me that on this map the thing you need most is research

I agree and that's why I choose to settle where I did. We've already got an IMP leader so pumping out quick settlers a bit later will be no problem. Sure, you could go early mining and even perhaps head right up to BW but after you settle the gold city your research will surely be stalled, no matter what you do.

To me it made more sense to focus on getting some commerce started early, therefore my initial tech path was AH > fishing (immediately work the 3F2C water plot) > Pottery (initially had 5 cottages > Agr > Min > Bw (pre chop for TGL) > Sailing > Masonry. I chose to grow to happy cap and maximize research (as I do in most cases) and then settled corn/gold, followed by share pig/banana/rice, and then settled my 3rd spot to the east.

This lets the southern city work 3 cottages and the eastern city work 2 cottages while you've been chopping/building mines in your Capital to finish TGL and Library (Capital working 4PH, 1 pig, and 1FP cottage gets both finished very quick. Then run 2 scientist in Capital and get a 400ish AD Academy which in conjunction with TGL gives you some pretty nice research.

Here's a screenie of my Capital at around 1140 AD and IMO its bringing in some nice commerce/research w/out having Oxford (which I'm sure I'll skip until after AL). Spoiler because i suppose if you peek at my Capital minimap you can see the land/other civilizations around you, but imo, not a huge spoiler in any case.

Spoiler :

 

[pigswill]

Thanks for the advice. Seems like the route to take is not to go for early settler but grow capital while knocking out some fogbusting warriors while awaiting sailing for LH with the aim of building Glight.

Techwise fishing next then the next three techs are sailing, masonry and BW. Order depends on whether I want to part whip LH. With happy cap of 5 I can work pigs, cows and 3 hills for 16 hammers and 12 food for 5 pop working tiles and a miserable shirker. I think I'll go for fishing then decide on tech order. Too early in the day for complicated sums.

Grow on pig, cow, FP, lake. Worker finishes cow then mines GH,GH,PH.