Rome VS The Mongols (hypothetical)

[Xen]

Xen, by this time the Mongols would already have scouted the area, killed your scouts, so they would already have a better knowledge of the area than you did, and known most of the paths. Knowing this, they probably would outflank you using local trails that not even your own army knows about, end up with half their force behind you, AND kill your messengers. This was essentially on the scale of what the Mongols achieved, time after time.

saying that is just the same as me saying the reverse, with the Romans themselves having prescouted the area, and having killed all the Mongol scouts; scouting the area is somthing that both armies, did, oddly enough (isnt it funny- these two armies did so many things alike- mabey because what they did were the rather clear cutr methods to a victory, thus both sides coudl have been expected to use them)

 

[Xen]

Ok, to reduce this constant argument of "can they do this, can they do that," I've emailed three professors on Roman military to see their opinion on this. One specialized in Roman military equipment, the second Roman military tactics, and the last Roman bureaucracy. I'll keep you updated once they reply.

cool- who are they?

 

[North King]

saying that is just the same as me saying the reverse, with the Romans themselves having prescouted the area, and having killed all the Mongol scouts; scouting the area is somthing that both armies, did, oddly enough (isnt it funny- these two armies did so many things alike- mabey because what they did were the rather clear cutr methods to a victory, thus both sides coudl have been expected to use them)

Not so; the Mongol soldier, one for one, is going to kill your scouts.

 

[Xen]

Not so; the Mongol soldier, one for one, is going to kill your scouts.

this type of argument is stupid saying that point a is isnt going to happoen because such and such and such and such., even no thier is evidence for an attempt absoloutelly NO garuntee that it woul eithe rbe cdarried out, or successful

 

[North King]

this type of argument is stupid saying that point a is isnt going to happoen because such and such and such and such., even no thier is evidence for an attempt absoloutelly NO garuntee that it woul eithe rbe cdarried out, or successful

Umm............ So what's the point of this thread at all, if there is no evidence, no guarantee than it would be carried out, or successful? Why are we even debating?

Show me that a Roman scout could beat a Mongol scout one on one.

 

[Xen]

Show me that a Roman scout could beat a Mongol scout one on one.

what the hell are you talking about? one for one it might well be a wrestleing match, and just as much is determined on personal physical stregth and fighting skills as it dose anything else.

as for why we are debateing- because the authoer wanted us to assume that the mongols and Romans were technologically equivilent, and then judge by thier stratagies and tactics, and well as, presumabley, other criteria, as to whom would win- I dont know if th emongols kept up thier shape in any Physical trianing, but the Romans did, so while I cant say for sure, because I just dont know what the other side dose, i lean towards the romans for that reason, fo rin a one-on-one fight, personal stregth can make all the difference.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Umm............ So what's the point of this thread at all, if there is no evidence, no guarantee than it would be carried out, or successful? Why are we even debating?

in such a situation (this thread) you cannot say anythign for sure, but only give your opinion on what they might do, based on what is (or at least what ones happens to percive) as the bes toption in any particuler situation that would have been used by the particuler side your working on.

 

[North King]

what the hell are you talking about? one for one it might well be a wrestleing match, and just as much is determined on personal physical stregth and fighting skills as it dose anything else.

as for why we are debateing- because the authoer wanted us to assume that the mongols and Romans were technologically equivilent, and then judge by thier stratagies and tactics, and well as, presumabley, other criteria, as to whom would win- I dont know if th emongols kept up thier shape in any Physical trianing, but the Romans did, so while I cant say for sure, because I just dont know what the other side dose, i lean towards the romans for that reason, fo rin a one-on-one fight, personal stregth can make all the difference.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the very LEAST a Mongol would match a Roman in physical strength. We're talking about steppe barbarians here, and they need every ounce of strength they can get.

 

[Xen]

At the very LEAST a Mongol would match a Roman in physical strength. We're talking about steppe barbarians here, and they need every ounce of strength they can get.

people woudl suspect Spartans were as strong as oxen too, but on average they only weighed around 180, and werent much stronger then any other particuler greek, and thats according to themselves!

in mass artmies, the physical stregth of one person dosent matter much- because its mass actions that are being taken; in a one on one, a brawl, or the smallest of skirmishes, then personal stregth dose matter.

that said, being a cavalryman dosetn particulerly indicate a great deal of personal stregth; i dont knwo the pull required by aMongolian bow, but i woudl bet its not over the range of 60-80 pounds.

 

[North King]

people woudl suspect Spartans were as strong as oxen too, but on average they only weighed around 180, and werent much stronger then any other particuler greek, and thats according to themselves!

in mass artmies, the physical stregth of one person dosent matter much- because its mass actions that are being taken; in a one on one, a brawl, or the smallest of skirmishes, then personal stregth dose matter.

that said, being a cavalryman dosetn particulerly indicate a great deal of personal stregth; i dont knwo the pull required by aMongolian bow, but i woudl bet its not over the range of 60-80 pounds.

It was mentioned earlier. Somewhere in the range of 100 to 150, IIRC.

Besides which, what's to stop the Mongol from seeing the Roman and shooting him with a bow and arrow?

 

[Xen]

really, 100-150? awesome- I need to try one

and about the mongol with a bow an arrow- your the one who said one on one- that means a good ole' fashioned brawl; as its stupid to scout an area with only one person ina team, so any conflicts between batle feild scouting parties would be cavalry skirmishes.

 

[North King]

really, 100-150? awesome- I need to try one

and about the mongol with a bow an arrow- your the one who said one on one- that means a good ole' fashioned brawl; as its stupid to scout an area with only one person ina team, so any conflicts between batle feild scouting parties would be cavalry skirmishes.

I never said a BRAWL, I said one on one. Full equipment, they see each other from a distance. And there the Mongols are sure to win; the Romans strength was on the battlefield in an organized group. Surely even YOU could say that the Mongols would win in a skirmish?

 

[Xen]

I never said a BRAWL, I said one on one. Full equipment, they see each other from a distance. And there the Mongols are sure to win; the Romans strength was on the battlefield in an organized group. Surely even YOU could say that the Mongols would win in a skirmish?

A)Roman equipment was made to be useful ina skirkish, with one-on-one fighting- dont belive me, give a try yourself- dont belive me after that? well, thier a reason 3 feet were used between each soldire, and that was to give each dude a good box around him to whip his junk out, and start whooping the enemy

B)Those legioaries worked out you know; Roman forts have well designated weight rooms, and, at least in britian, thie rhave been actual dumbells of assorted weights actually found on site (thier broken, and were thrown intot he fort dump though)- thus, whiel I cant say much abotu the mongols, I KNOW that the Romans woudl be prepaared for a bralw

as for the skirmish- as so many thing, it depands on what romans, from what era- dont forget, mounts are also important, and the Roman mount of Spanish horse- a horse that even the arabs with thier famou sstallions opted to use when availible- was far and away better then those little mongolian ponies

 

[North King]

A)Roman equipment was made to be useful ina skirkish, with one-on-one fighting- dont belive me, give a try yourself- dont belive me after that? well, thier a reason 3 feet were used between each soldire, and that was to give each dude a good box around him to whip his junk out, and start whooping the enemy

I know that very well... I would not want to go into battle as a footsoldier against the Romans. Of course, I wouldn't want to against the Mongols, either.

B)Those legioaries worked out you know; Roman forts have well designated weight rooms, and, at least in britian, thie rhave been actual dumbells of assorted weights actually found on site (thier broken, and were thrown intot he fort dump though)- thus, whiel I cant say much abotu the mongols, I KNOW that the Romans woudl be prepaared for a bralw

Interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks for the information.

However, working out and NEEDing strength and personal fighting skills as a daily staple are two different things.

as for the skirmish- as so many thing, it depands on what romans, from what era- dont forget, mounts are also important, and the Roman mount of Spanish horse- a horse that even the arabs with thier famou sstallions opted to use when availible- was far and away better then those little mongolian ponies

However, they would not be charging each other in a skirmish, or at least the Mongols wouldn't charge the Romans. The Mongol horses would probably have the advantage in speed, after all, being lighter, and probably bred for that very trait.

 

[Xen]

the horses stregth at charging isnt important- both sides actually need to scout the battle feild, and scouting parties dont ususally fight each other for that very purpose- getting thier terrian, an denemy information is more important- in this case, the Spanish horse, whom can carry alot of weight, and still travel quite swiftlly, is the better option; because if they did get into a fight, the Roman scouts and skirmishers woudl be able to either get away fast, or get at the mongols fast enough to where if they lost casulties due to bow fire. they coudl make it up in close combat

 

[North King]

the horses stregth at charging isnt important- both sides actually need to scout the battle feild, and scouting parties dont ususally fight each other for that very purpose- getting thier terrian, an denemy information is more important- in this case, the Spanish horse, whom can carry alot of weight, and still travel quite swiftlly, is the better option; because if they did get into a fight, the Roman scouts and skirmishers woudl be able to either get away fast, or get at the mongols fast enough to where if they lost casulties due to bow fire. they coudl make it up in close combat

And who says the Mongosl couldn't have retreated at the same time, firing parthian style at the Romans?

 

[Xen]

if the mongol sretreated, its noit likelly the Romans woudl persue, but rather just carry out the mission (liek wise, if the romans retreated, i dont see much sence in the mongol persuing them either)

 

[North King]

if the mongol sretreated, its noit likelly the Romans woudl persue, but rather just carry out the mission (liek wise, if the romans retreated, i dont see much sence in the mongol persuing them either)

If they made a small scale retreat, not a large one? I'm referring to the temorary dancing away of the Mongol ponies to avoid charging foes.

 

[Xen]

well thats the thing; its doubtful that the Romans woudl charge in the gfirst place- its a scouting expedition, and even in the tim eof adrianople, the commanders were still smart enough to give explicit instructions to scouts not to engage the enemy- unfortunatellly, apperntlly troop[e rlistening skill swere no longer up to par by then, and they did exactley th eopposite, cause the folly of adrianople.

 

[North King]

(Just as a side note, I just played out a similar battle in Rome: Total War pitting the Scythians against the Romans. With 1/2 the Romans' numbers I won the day with a kill count of over 6 times that of the Romans. Not that this will convince Xen or anything. )

Anyway, given that both would ahve equal knowledge of the battlefield or about that, what would be the Romans next move?

 

[Warman17]

well obviously the AI isn't as competant as a real person. Pit uyourself agaisnt Xen, then lets see