Roose (Industrious-Deity series)

[futurehermit]

But I did end up running a few bulbs

He have said this before i strongly disagree and think roosvelt is one of the very weakest leaders around...

I think he has some very strong synergies. I don't think there is a leader who can get the GLH faster than him. Starts with fishing, cheap lighthouse, cheap GLH. Very strong for coastal openings. Can go for an obsolete-style wonderspam if starts inland and able to block off a bit of terrain. Starts with fishing for coastal food and agriculture for inland food.

Granted, his UU and UB come late, but the UU is quite strong for overseas conquering and the UB is helpful to enhance rushbuying...and he gets cheap Kremlin.

Oracle-MC for cheap forges is an approach that any Ind leader can go for, but Roosey can also go Oracle-CoL for cheap courthouses, which is also handy.

A lot of it boils down to whether or not you think Ind is a strong trait or not. I know that Oyzar doesn't like it, but I think it is a top 3 trait, so I think Roosey is quite strong.

 

[Yesod]

Can you post a save? I'm wondering how much TGL is giving you in commerce. having 7 cities up that early on deity and keeping the slider at 60% is impressive.

 

[vanatteveldt]

What are your plans with the two GS's? In your capital you can settle them for quite some science, no?

Would you consider playing the Gliese William map as the next challenge? I know you dislike FIN but it's a nice tectonic coastal start with a good production capital plus marble but crap other land, so I think you should be able to squeeze quite a lot out of it; curious how you'd play it out... Also, comparing your and Glieses game will be very interesting, I think. You are even mentioned in the comments

 

[Joshua368]

Would you consider playing the Gliese William map as the next challenge? I know you dislike FIN but it's a nice tectonic coastal start with a good production capital plus marble but crap other land, so I think you should be able to squeeze quite a lot out of it; curious how you'd play it out... Also, comparing your and Glieses game will be very interesting, I think. You are even mentioned in the comments

That's actually a good idea, that map had a very good obsolete-style capital but really awful land around with not much else. Would be fun to see.


Regarding the current game, do you ever actually take sides in a war? If I find a single civ getting dogpiled by many others (who I want to befriend) and don't share a border with the declared I will join in a phony war on their side when asked. It ticks off the civ who is declared on of course... (only -3) but you can easily get +4 or more "mutual military struggle" bonuses and no refusal penalties.

I mean I understand with how powerful Ghandi will likely become you probably didn't want to do it but is this something you consider?

 

[obsolete]

I know that Oyzar doesn't like it, but I think it is a top 3 trait, so I think Roosey is quite strong.

Well, I did feel guilty about the bulbs. But settling wasn't as hot anymore because I didn't have Rep. So now we are 6 beakers instead of 9. Of course the extra hammer roughly counts as 3 other beakers due to rule of thumb. But even more so because we are industrious with forge (and more boosters to come). But of course, we have library, with University coming up (when we bulb 2 on education), and we already used one Scientist to build the academy. That's another 100% boost to the settled. So obviously, by lightbulbing we are short-changing our future pay offs.

However, as mentioned our tech pace is slower without Rep, and with masters like Gandhi and Mansu on a deity no less, there is a chance we MAY lose the lib race. So, our settled scientists will have to make up the difference of the tech we lose (nationalism). Meaning they have to hang around longer to make up the new quota.

BUT STILL.. don't forget we have no marble here, so if we want to win the Taj race, we need to get the tech even sooner than in the other case. Now IF we can win the Taj race, the golden age should at least return back one of the scientists we lost on the burn, most likely more. Possibly 1.8 or so? So even if we burn, if there is a good chance of replacing those precious scientists from Taj then it wasn't too bad a decision. Have to ask yourself which costs more. Sometimes you STILL go for the higher cost just to have some INSURANCE policy if you don't want to lose stuff to the AI, because it really counts as a swing of 2 (the AI gets stuff + the deficit of you losing stuff).

Burning off a GM is OK on economics in order to win the race for the other FREE GM, and I also burned a couple scientists off on physics. The reason being is I had a chance to get there FIRST, which meant the first Scientist I lost was neutral because it lets me gain the free scientist I would have lost. The other scientist was an insurance policy. Still, it then looks like 2-for-1 which seems bad, but if I don't get that free scientist, someone else will, so then it counts as 2. So this changes things to around 2-for-2, and of course I get the extra beakers along the way.

So.....

It depends....

The math is more detailed than that but this would take volumes of discussion. Anyhow, whatever someone decides in this spot, I can't complain. A lot of it comes down to risk vs reward. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I know I misplayed a bit. My lightbulbs was not optimal, which means I had a lot of more wastage than normal, in fact a big reason was mostly for insurance policy. I could have played more optimal but then that opens you up to certain risks. You know how it goes... some random AI catches a great GP at the right time and poof... all your planning comes crashing down.

This is the problem!

As for top 3, surely Industrious is in top 2? The only other 2 contenders I can think of are IMP and Spiritual. The third contender would probably be Org. Anyhow, Spritual took quite a nosedive with the big nerfs in BtS, which is probably the main reason I haven't be totally abusing Ramesses anymore

having 7 cities up that early on deity and keeping the slider at 60% is impressive.

I guess we owe it all to Dr. Org.

Also, comparing your and Glieses game will be very interesting, I think. You are even mentioned in the comments

Well the problem is so much I want to do, but so little time. After this I want to still go through all the other Industrious leaders that I keep seeing being rated at the bottom of the barrel. And then I still have other ongoing things like that God's of War team-game.

Anyhow, I hope the comments about me are not TOO BAD!

That's actually a good idea, that map had a very good obsolete-style capital but really awful land around with not much else. Would be fun to see.


Regarding the current game, do you ever actually take sides in a war?

I mean I understand with how powerful Ghandi will likely become you probably didn't want to do it but is this something you consider?

I used to do fake wars, but lately I try not to. If things go really bad, it's nice to have a diplo-exit-strategy to pull your ass out of the fire. Getting -3 Each war is pretty... much asking for some problems down the road.

Though, I do remember once I was in a war with Charle, and despite my -3 for DoW on him, AND a -4 for (this war sucks), he STILL was at FRIENDLY while we were in the middle of slaughtering each other's stacks.

 

[Joshua368]

I used to do fake wars, but lately I try not to. If things go really bad, it's nice to have a diplo-exit-strategy to pull your ass out of the fire. Getting -3 Each war is pretty... much asking for some problems down the road.

Though, I do remember once I was in a war with Charle, and despite my -3 for DoW on him, AND a -4 for (this war sucks), he STILL was at FRIENDLY while we were in the middle of slaughtering each other's stacks.

Well it all depends on the situation... if the guy ends up vassalized that diplo bonus doesn't matter anymore, and you get bonuses with the big guy on the block. I know one recent immortal game a phony war saved my life, getting a monstrous Napoleon sharing a huge border friendly in the late classical era and helping me keep him there until I got nukes.

On archipelago maps though AI-AI domination is much more unlikely though, so it makes it a lot less rewarding strategy.

 

[obsolete]

Turns 200-210

Spoiler :

Hmm, Willem is starting to look scary. He’s becoming the tech-monster now.

Seems we caught up with Hammurabi. He is something that Willem created. Well I’m certainly glad now that Willem nerfed a big chunk of his own power. His teching may slow down now.

Anyhow, here I go and try to help Mansu along in trades. I could be wrong, but I THINK I ended up misclicking a scientist and caused a light bulb of chemistry. Which is probably why he wanted to give me just about everything for democracy. But I decided to take only 2 techs to keep myself from getting too advanced.

It may look rather foolish to give away demo so cheap for cheap techs now, but I wanted to get him up to friendly.

Turn 210-220

Spoiler :

A privateer shoved up, then disappeared. But that is not my real worry.
This was my real worry!

Nappy the super-aggressive bastard shows up with some…… something planed. I don’t know what it is… but………… I have my suspicions!

I decided to run my forced peace tricks, unfortunately they wouldn’t work. So basically I resolved to the fact I’d lose this city and simply have to wait him out for resume talks. I didn’t want to DoW on him first, because that would make him hate me. The only other thing I could do is hope he was trying to dog pile on Gandhi. After all, Napoleon was PLEASED with me….

***
Phew… he was indeed after Gandhi… what a false alarm.

Turns 220-230

Spoiler :

Well, up we go in the tech tree, and here we are with yet another nice new shiny wonder. Broadway. This should buy me a few extra free trades.
Now, I have my eyes set on grabbing every wonder available in radio…

By the way, Gandi ended up capitulating to Saladin.

And a funny bug… I ended up popping a hut, at the very end here, even in this late stage, and guess what? I popped a scout! Not an EXPLORER, which replaces the scout, but a real life BC era scout! Unbelievable. That should be fixed, I don’t want to pop an out-dated unit ever again! (Unless it’s barbs).

Turns 230-240

Spoiler :

Alright, a lot of stuff this turn-set. We actually completed two wonders in the capital.

1. IronWorks
2. Cristo Redentor

The IW I want to help speed up completing of other wonders/projects. Unfortunately there is a sad catch. I am a bit unlucky in that none of my territory has any coal or even iron! Even that SURPRISE-CITY which I felt may eventually get a resource turns out to be not. So it’s still a city with no food or resources, just taking up some of my costs. But at least I’m ORG.

I traded to Gandi for iron, which he charged me an ABSOLUTE REDICULOUS price for, but I had no choice. I then traded around to a cheaper AI for coal, which didn’t cost an arm and a leg at least.

I also was working on the 3 media wonders in 3 different cities, then I will de-que one of them and built it in the capital so the others will get their hammer overlay converted into gold.

Also, I found a patch of ice that has Iron, so I am taking it! Even if the city does nothing, just having that iron will save me a fortune.

Turns 240-250

Spoiler :

With our own iron hooked up now, we cancel that ridiculous rip-off price from Gandhi.

Also, we complete another two wonders in the capital. Rock’n Roll and Eiffel. In fact we have so many wonders now, it is impossible to show them on just one screen, ahah. Let that be a lesson the next time someone peaches how wonders and industrious is useless on high levels. It’s most likely one of the many amateurs just touting their horn.

Anyhow, we also gain quite some gold for having duplicates of these hammers in other cities.

So, why stop using our trait here? Lets grab another 2 wonders from Mass Media shall we?

Turns 250-260

Spoiler :

Geeze what a beautiful capital this is turning out to be… if only the AI’s got smart enough to ATTACK IT! That’s what a human would do…

Anyhow, we ended up completing Hollywood here. I went after it before the UN because I wanted to get my free trades going sooner. And I didn’t think I’d lose the UN race since no one has MM yet. Also, I wasn’t even sure if I wanted to complete the UN, or just use it to build wealth.

Turns 260-270

Spoiler :

Willem, Hamm, and Charle dog piled onto Mansa. Ahah!

And, we finally put in the last hammer into the United Nations. Without a doubt, this is quite a WONDERFUL city. However, I’m not so sure I should have completed this. I think I made an error, and should have removed it from the Que, and rebuilt it in another city. But I may have been worried if some other AI was already finished researching MM, I can’t quite remember now.

My top contender was Napoleon. So I am basically granted secretary every time now.

Turns 270-280

Spoiler :

We discovered a source of aluminum in Deadman’s city. That’s good I think…

Also, only Saladin votes for me for the diplo option, that’s because I’m forced to run other civics at the moment that hurt my rep. However, I can try fixing that issue after the internet is built. Also, I started to crank out some military units as I figure this is a good a time as any to backstab someone. Perhaps grabbing some extra landmasses.

Turns 280-290

Spoiler :

Mansa Musa capitulated to Saladin.

Also, I capture this piece of icy-tundra so I can have a nice ace up the sleeve for obvious reasons, when you see the resource.

Turns 290-300

Spoiler :

Alright, technically I didn’t play to turn 300 yet. I went up to 296, and we put in the last hammer to the Internet. Some may be getting tired of seeing inside the capital over and over now. But there wasn’t much else to show. Besides, you probably don’t see many of these capitals on deity

Out of curiosity I still hit end turn before shutting the system down to watch all the free techs flood in. So without a doubt, we have owner ship of the project. This now really expands some more of the possibilities.

I can go military, or diplo, or space-race. I really am not sure… there are some units I had cranked out but I think I should have waited because it did slow me down a bit on my way to computers. And I’m not sure a war should be used since there is no need for one. But I couldn’t help noticing how backward Napoleon was and got a little trigger-itchy. Maybe I should keep my transports and draftees in reserve to counter any AI who tries to over-pass me in the space race? Lots of possibilities here…

 

[Gwynnja]

I decided to run my forced peace tricks, unfortunately they wouldn’t work.

I'm curious what these are, do you mind sharing them with the rest of us?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

go space, it's over anyway... and spies are cheaper for screwing their projects imho

 

[futurehermit]

Let that be a lesson the next time someone peaches how wonders and industrious is useless on high levels. It’s most likely one of the many amateurs just touting their horn.

 

[oyzar]

Why haven't you farmed over the sugar E of the capital?

 

[Bleys]

I am REALLY glad you are back doing these games obsolete. I have been a huge fan of IND and even though I was a Wonderhog before I learned about your style, those games you did a year or so ago were what made me keep pumping em out. In fact, you practically moved me from Prince to Monarch by showcasing the power of the "Whip overflow into Wonders" technique.

Thanks mate.

I dont bother arguing much about the IND and SPI nay-sayers, because I know that in order to leverage those traits explosively, you have to be REALLY active about it. So many traits take very little active effort to get a solid benefit out of them.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I agree, screw the war, just launch your ship. Then you can get on to the next "crummy ind leader."

 

[obsolete]

I'm curious what these are, do you mind sharing them with the rest of us?

Ohh, I can not share all my winning secrets, can I.. Then there would not be anything left to argue anymore on the forums!

*hint... begs... *hint... demands...

Why haven't you farmed over the sugar E of the capital?

I am sure I converted the sugar into a sugar resource, which already adds food. If I did not do it earlier it is because I was busy doing other things.

because I know that in order to leverage those traits explosively, you have to be REALLY active about it.

People are active about stuff and do not even know it. Even the amateur will build national wonders... despite he claims he only captures wonders.

----------------------------------------

Anyhow, I was tempted to go after another Diplo victory just to prove it was not a fluke in the last game, however I did read about some rather negative critics about SE in space-age in the An advanced guide to the specialist economy for emperor and above thread over at the Strategy Articles section.

So... obviously I could not resist but set my goals on space-race to finish off this game. And wouldnt you know... we forgot to build cottages all this time!

Whoooopsies!

I will try and post what happened within 24 hours...

 

[Joshua368]

Why don't you just have a multiplayer duel deity face-off with DaveMcW already.

 

[obsolete]

Turns 300-310

Spoiler :

After getting a whole bunch of free crappy techs I bypassed earlier, I decided to sign a Defensive Pact with Saladin. Just in case anyone gets any fancy ideas…

I don’t have enough votes for diplo vic, but I keep selecting it anyway just to see how the votes and population of the world leaders are turning out…

We also popped a GE. At the time I had a chance to go after the SE, and at this late stage of the game, I figured I might as well just use him to partially rush the SE, since Saladin started working on it earlier, and his deity bonuses are now kicking in to the highest levels possible.

Anyhow, the world’s last wonder is ready for completion… Take a look…

Turns 310-320

Spoiler :

It is rather silly we completed the SE before Apollo, but nevertheless, we completed Apollo this turn-set.

Charle DoWs on Napoleon….

I ended up giving him over 5K gold for peace though, Haha. And got most of it back a turn later for selling a tech.

Anyhow, it looks like Willem not only is doing OK in tech, but he is in the lead during this turn-set for the space-race. I’ll have to come up with a plan to sling-shot above him.

Turns 320-330

Spoiler :

Hmm, Saladin and his vassal Gandhi DoW on Mansa, and Mansa nukes one of them, haha!

I also decided to give Willem a big tech to bribe him off Mansa’s back. Yeah, this sounds pretty foolish since I was trying to plan a way to sling above Willem and now I’m giving him big breaks when I pull ahead. But I got a decent plan going here, I am zipping through Fusion now, so I can grab the free Engineer. I’ll then couple it with my Merchant to run a Golden Age.

I also got a ******** event pop up… do I want to GIFT copper to Saladin for his war-effort against tech-master Mansa?

Hmm!!! What is the benefits of this anyway?

Saladin captured a city from Mansa… so he should be doing FINE on his own. Why would I want to help him speed up space-ship parts anyway?

Turns 330-340

Spoiler :

Unfortunately, Mansa ended up beating us to Fusion (we were SOO CLOSE!). But what can you do. However, we were due to pop out a GE anyway from our pool, so we still can run the golden-age.

I also used the UN to force peace-keeping between Mansa and Saladin. Rather funny that Saladin STARTED the war.. And was WINNING the war, but he voted for STOP THE WAR, while Mansa wanted to keep pressing on, haha. Firaxis at its dumbest…(well maybe not quite).

I also finished teching Ecology and now went onto future tech. I also started to duplicate a few space-ship parts in other cities, then later took them off the Que again so I could finish a part or two in my capital, thus getting a very nice wealth bonus. Hehe.

Turns 340-350

Spoiler :

On turn #343 we ended off shooting into space, with all thrusters attached. Willem was still our closest rival, and he didn’t even have the tech to unlock the SS-Engine yet.

We also popped another GE, though at this stage we were not building anything anymore.. And we didn’t have any chance to run a golden age.. So the only thing to do was to light bulb, which sad to say, didn’t really make much difference in our teching either. But… what else can you do.

Turns 350-355

Spoiler :

After I had forced Willem to make peace with Mansa, it seems he just re DoWed again not too soon after. At least he didn’t reDoW the turn after I made them do peace (there is a bug that allows it).

Anyhow, on turn #355, it was all over. In fact, I was rather hoping an AI would attack me, but seems they were just too incredibly stupid to figure out what was going on.

I also noticed a problem in that no matter how many future-techs I had, I never had to option of selling any of them. Oh well…

 

[oyzar]

I am sure I converted the sugar into a sugar resource, which already adds food. If I did not do it earlier it is because I was busy doing other things.

No i ment farming, you already have another sugar resource, after biology a farm would give 1 more food, not to mention that it would allow you to irrigate to your other farms.

 

[obsolete]

If I farm over it, I can`t trade it.

 

[futurehermit]

after biology a farm would give 1 more food

Sugar gives 4 food and a post-biology grassland farm also gives 4 food, right?

 

[vale]

Yes, but a post biology farmed sugar gives 5 food.

But there are reasons to not farm sugars. Having an excess resource to trade is often worth more than 1 food. This is in addition to the extra commerce the sugar plantation gives (IIRC).