Roosevelt: A Powerhouse?

[InvisibleStalke]

My main problem with Roosevelt is that he's dominated by Huayna Capac... any strategy that works well with Roosevelt will work well with HC, and HC is better at exploiting other opportunites if they present themselves.

I like Roosevelt better than HC. Not that HC isn't excellent - my problem is that he has two strong traits that pull in different directions - a little like Liz. I prefer leaders that have one strong trait that sets their overall strategy (usually industrious, financial or philo) and then a secondary trait that either boosts military or supports the primary strategy.

Roosevelt works well because the industrious leads to a wonderspam capital and per city bonuses and organized supports a big empire later. With HC I am always trading off the benfits of cottaging the capital early and wonder spamming and so don't do either as well.

Roosevelt is one of my favorite leaders. And SEALS one of my favorite units. Getting to Industrialism having built the Kremlin and you can rushbuy an army that is unstoppable for late game wars. Nothing in its era can stand up to SEALS.

 

[Artichoker]

I'll have to try Roosevelt some time...I've only had the game for about 2 months, so it will take a while to get to all of the leaders.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Think of it this way, InvisibleStalker.

Assuming you are mining everything and focusing on food + hammers to wonderspam and/or build an army early on, both financial and organized are going to do squat for you early.

Get done with that and you can cottage. Financial > organized from that point on. A bit after getting code of laws, Organized gets a bit of a sprint when your courthouses finish a bit sooner, but it will never at any point catch up.

Get a few cities and HC's traits stop competing with each other. One's carpeted with mines and cranks out wonders, and the occasional troop when there are none you want to build. The rest can benefit from financial.

Then you consider the enormous gap between Quechuas and Seals...

 

[iamnleth]

I like how the AI plays Roosevelt.

1000 AD: His capital of Washington is the number one city in the world, ripe with many wonders.

1050AD: "Trv016 has captured the American city of Washington!"

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I like how the AI plays Roosevelt.

1000 AD: His capital of Washington is the number one city in the world, ripe with many wonders.

1050AD: "Trv016 has captured the American city of Washington!"

No joke, the AI tends to be a total walkover using America unless it begins REALLY favorably. On that 18 civ map monty ALWAYS flattens America, unless I'm playing them.

As for comparing HC to Roosevelt...cmon. HC is among the top tier leaders in the entire game, Industrious/financial with a cheese rushing ability.

I find Washington to be kind of bad in this. Expansive and charismatic...maybe I just don't play right to take advantage of charismatic. Roosevelt though...! On a coastal start it's just like the OP says (i've been toying with it a bit this weekend and nearly won my first prince game this way...although I lost to space race due to 3 isolated budha buddies tech whoring and then protecting each other. I reload it and can't win! I AM .6% land mass from domination! TT But I digress...) Spamming courthouses and lighthouses everywhere and cranking out GLH/Colossus can put you up big. For a change I could keep up somewhat in tech while fighting on Prince.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

I liked Washington a lot better when he was financial/organized. He went from being awesome to mediocre.

 

[Iranon]

@ InvisibleStalke: You could play HC as you play Roosevelt and you probably wouldn't be any worse off for it... that Huayna is so flexible that it's often difficult to pick the optimal strategy is hardly a disadvantage (in fact, that's the real reason why I consider him a monster).

By the way, that's what I meant when I said HC dominates Roosevelt while I disagree with madscientist's claim that he dominates everyone: I think he's the generally the strongest, but many other leaders have their areas of excellence where they outclass him.
Joao can set up an Axe Rush very very quickly. Nobody can box in the competition like Catherine. Other early UUs have a longer shelf life, the same goes for bonuses from military traits. Darius in particular has a similar potential to go broken in several ways. Any PHI leader has a stronger potential for a SE. Sitting Bull is also a lot safer from classical-age warmongers (imao he sucks harder than an octopus vampire, but he certainly isn't dominated by Huayna).

 

[futurehermit]

I won a very nice domination victory (monarch/normal/hemispheres) with R so I was feeling confident and stepped up to emperor next game. I must say it's awhile since I've tried emperor and I see that I'm going to have to concentrate a lot more if I want to compete. The AI techs much faster, which I like, but have to get used to. Warring is much more difficult, so that is good, but tough.

Things that were working for me on monarch are no longer working, although I'm not overly shocked. One thing I've noticed is that emperor is much, much less forgiving on the whole and I will have to get used to playing from behind because on monarch I'm usually playing from the front for most of the game.

So, yeah, it's an adjustment and my hype around R has cooled a bit. I still see him as good, probably better than a lot, but I'm starting to see the value in financial and philosophical more and more on emperor, creative as well. Getting land is much trickier so if you sit back building wonders you can get hemmed in by monster AIs.

Anyways, this probably isn't news to anyone, but I'm feeling more like my "make good decisions" thread where, regardless of leader, you just try and make the best decisions available to you given the map.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well futurehermit, I started playing civ4 after getting it this christmas, and have been fighting my way up the difficulty levels since. I don't think I've played "from the front" since my last warlord game. Thanks to recent help on this forum I'm starting to win on Prince, but playing from behind! . Is it better to be used to this? Slamming swordsmen into feudal units can be kind of difficult.

 

[InFlux5]

Lightbulbing MC is great; if you're Industrious it's fantastic. You're getting a very good GPP/beakers ratio if you bulb this tech early, and it pays dividends. Nothing can compare to the production boost of Forges that early. If you're on the coast the Colossus is a great wonder to have. Not to mention it gets you closer to Macemen.

If I'm Industrious I'm very frequently looking to bulb MC. The cheap, early Forges lend themselves to continued wonder spam - or military unit spam. It's very flexible.

 

[madscientist]

Regarding Wahington.

He is one of those very underestimated leaders IMO. His traits allow him to grow cities very large very fast. He starts with agriculture/fishing which means right out of the gate he has stronge food, allowing fast growth. Expansive gets him workers faster, plus the fast graneries.

His game flatlines mid-game

Late game he shines alot as the UU/UB kick in. With charismatic, thos navy seals come out with ALOT of promotions. You navy should be getting well promoted as just a drydock get's you 2 free promotion out of the gate. Add westpoint or a few settled GGs and America dominate the oil-driven fleet.

It is very rare for me not to get off to a great start or win a game as the Americans.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Think of it this way, InvisibleStalker.

Assuming you are mining everything and focusing on food + hammers to wonderspam and/or build an army early on, both financial and organized are going to do squat for you early.

On the contrary, Roosevelt has a fair easier time with Police State (from Pyramids)+Feudalism/Bureaucracy+Conquered Cities.

Get done with that and you can cottage. Financial > organized from that point on. A bit after getting code of laws, Organized gets a bit of a sprint when your courthouses finish a bit sooner, but it will never at any point catch up.

Organized also has cheaper Lighthouses for Coastal cities and cheaper Factories for late-game production.

Get a few cities and HC's traits stop competing with each other. One's carpeted with mines and cranks out wonders, and the occasional troop when there are none you want to build. The rest can benefit from financial.

But Roosevelt's traits do not compete with each other at all.

Then you consider the enormous gap between Quechuas and Seals...

If it's Quechua vs. Seal, I think the Seal would win. I won't deny that HC's strong, but Roosevelt's advantages make him competitive, and the late game advantages are all Roosevelt's. It's really a matter of playstyle.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Think of it this way, InvisibleStalker.

Assuming you are mining everything and focusing on food + hammers to wonderspam and/or build an army early on, both financial and organized are going to do squat for you early.

Bad assumption. Some of the best wonders go early - I don't like early war with industrious leaders. Oh but my UU is only good early - thats a dilemna.

And with financial I love early cottages. Like my second tech is pottery. I can double my research rate in the first 30 turns of the game - thats huge. But then I can't build those wonders. Or rush anyone with Quechas.

Get done with that and you can cottage. Financial > organized from that point on. A bit after getting code of laws, Organized gets a bit of a sprint when your courthouses finish a bit sooner, but it will never at any point catch up.

I agree financial > organized. But for me industrious = financial - its one of the top three traits in the game. And organized is a better combo for me with industrious.

Financial + Industrious presents two dilemnas. Cottages or wonders in the early game. And to cottage/mine the capital for bureaucracy. Choosing to emphasize one trait weakens the other.

Get a few cities and HC's traits stop competing with each other. One's carpeted with mines and cranks out wonders, and the occasional troop when there are none you want to build. The rest can benefit from financial.

Which one is the capital though? Only one gets bureaucracies bonus.

Then you consider the enormous gap between Quechuas and Seals...

Quechas come at a time that there are multiple competing priorities. On some games they will be outstanding. On others they may not shine at all. Get to industrialism and I guarantee that SEALS will always shine.

@ InvisibleStalke: You could play HC as you play Roosevelt and you probably wouldn't be any worse off for it... that Huayna is so flexible that it's often difficult to pick the optimal strategy is hardly a disadvantage (in fact, that's the real reason why I consider him a monster).

Fair enough - maybe you play as an industrious leader and cottage the other cities. But I don't necessarily play Roosevelt in a way that would be suitable for HC. For example early pyramids opens up a pretty good specialist economy.

By the way, that's what I meant when I said HC dominates Roosevelt while I disagree with madscientist's claim that he dominates everyone: I think he's the generally the strongest, but many other leaders have their areas of excellence where they outclass him.
Joao can set up an Axe Rush very very quickly. Nobody can box in the competition like Catherine. Other early UUs have a longer shelf life, the same goes for bonuses from military traits. Darius in particular has a similar potential to go broken in several ways. Any PHI leader has a stronger potential for a SE. Sitting Bull is also a lot safer from classical-age warmongers (imao he sucks harder than an octopus vampire, but he certainly isn't dominated by Huayna).

I don't disagree that HC is strong. Even if you ignored one of his traits the other would be top tier. But I find him frustrating to play - I am always conscious of what I am missing out on since I can't maximize both traits and his UU at the same time.

 

[BurN]

I don't disagree that HC is strong. Even if you ignored one of his traits the other would be top tier. But I find him frustrating to play - I am always conscious of what I am missing out on since I can't maximize both traits and his UU at the same time.

Just browsing quickly trough this thread. Just wanted to say I agree on this point. His UU pretty much forces you to rush, which results in not building early key wonders. And I find those early ones the most important.

If you don't rush, while you can rush .. I think that's just a huge missed opportunity indeed. I played a game with HC some time ago and I just abandoned it for the reason you mentioned. His traits and UU don't make sense at all imho, the whole "gameplan" of that guy is too vague for me. Not that I was losing the game of course p), I just didn't feel like playing him. Or maybe HC just doesn't fit my Ind gamestyle. If I pick Ind it's just to sit back and build stuff, not rush the sht out of everyone from turn one.

 

[schwartz]

just to chip in my .02..
I'm not too good at this game (yet) and i'm still working on winning at prince consistently but when i recently bought bts and washington (my favorite leader) went from fin/org to exp/chm i tried roose because my economy is usually weak, and organized is a good crutch.. i sometimes go wonder-crazy too, and ind is obviously good for that..

 

[futurehermit]

when i play as HC i generally don't rush, because i feel like it's an exploit since any human player would just add warriors instead of building more archers. instead, i view the uu as a great anti-barb unit and focus on building wonders and getting good commerce cities to out-tech my rivals. then, once the important wonders are in the bag, and my economy is in order, i'll go stomp some backwards AIs.

of course, this is difficulty-level dependent.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I haven't tried Roosevelt but I'm currently playing Lincoln who is also a very strong leader. Can't say I like the late UU but then again I haven't felt the need to go to war in a particular timeframe like I would with Hannibal or Justinian (my other current favourite leaders) to exploit the period when their UU is useful.

 

[futurehermit]

An amphibious unit that starts with march, that also has first strikes, is nothing to sneeze at imho. Industrialism also comes with tanks, once you have combustion. I remember one of Aelf's EMC's where he was playing as R. I'm pretty sure it was the trade economy one, but I could be wrong. I was unsure how he was going to win by domination when he expanded quite slowly in the early game. However, once tanks and Seals were available, I was astounded at the rate of conquest he pulled off on the other continent.

If you have a M.A.S.H. unit along with your Seals you have a pretty powerful SoD.

 

[AmazonQueen]

An amphibious unit that starts with march, that also has first strikes, is nothing to sneeze at imho. Industrialism also comes with tanks, once you have combustion. I remember one of Aelf's EMC's where he was playing as R. I'm pretty sure it was the trade economy one, but I could be wrong. I was unsure how he was going to win by domination when he expanded quite slowly in the early game. However, once tanks and Seals were available, I was astounded at the rate of conquest he pulled off on the other continent.

If you have a M.A.S.H. unit along with your Seals you have a pretty powerful SoD.

But by the time marines and tanks come along I'[ve usually done all the offensive warring I intend to. Still present game I'm expanding slowly, building a strong economy so maybe this will be the game I'll try a late war.

 

[futurehermit]

Well, if you're going for a domination victory and the game isn't over yet, then you will still have warring to do I don't see the Americans as a peaceful victory condition civilization

One thing I would like to get peoples' thoughts on, however, is how to leverage the UB?? The extra makes sense to me for managing WW prior to getting all your jails/rushmore/ps in place. The extra I guess can help keep you afloat if you're really pushing your economy.

But what about the possibility of using it to help out with rushbuying, maybe in combination with the Kremlin? I usually use a SE with the Americans. However, maybe transitioning to a CE mid-to-late game would allow rushbuying of military and infrastructure needs later in the game? The loss of teching while rushbuying wouldn't be that big of a deal because you're not going for space?