Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
Amenhotep7 said:You took my acronym!
Ah, well. My ROTM shall be cooler.
(Louis XXIV, if you're reading this, check your PM box! I need you to upload the ROTM!)
I know, but it was the only thing I got in mind.
ROTM: Rise Of The Mughals
- Thread starter Luddi VII
- Start date
I know, but it was the only thing I got in mind.
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
Thanks a lot Balam!!
DBear
unbeliever
Luddi VII said:
That was the problem. I had renamed the folder and the Taj Mahal in the editor was linking to the Palace.
I also found that no one can build settlers and the Mughuls cannot build swordsmen. A note in the readme or civopedia would've been nice, but the scenario looks good.
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
No, I have no plans for that, but you may do it.
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
DBear said:That was the problem. I had renamed the folder and the Taj Mahal in the editor was linking to the Palace.
I also found that no one can build settlers and the Mughuls cannot build swordsmen. A note in the readme or civopedia would've been nice, but the scenario looks good.
Ok.
I made it impossible to build settlers because when I tested it, the AI built a lot of other cities. And I didn't know the Mughals cannot build swordsmen, but they have other units that other civs cannot build, so it can just be so.
Cabbit
Part-time Spaceship
This scenario is fun to play in terms of gameplay but there are number of historical innacuraricies present; I intend to piont out a couple and make suggestion on how to remedy them.
Historical Observations and Suggestions
-There were no significant Maratha rulers until the reighn of Aurengzeb, the last of the "great" Moghul emporerors (ruled 1658-1707) The significant powers around Akbar's reighn were instead:
-The Bahmanid Sultanate Successor Kingdoms: (Ahmadnagar, Bijapur, Bidar, Berar, Golconda) These guys were in the central Deccan
-The Vijayanagar Kingdom; traditional revival kingdom of the Bahmanids, they were (according to some historians) the first hindu nationalist state
These guys were in the far South, they were defeated decivevily by the successor kingdoms to the Bahmanid Sultanate in 1664 and were forced to abandon thier capital
-Bengal Indeed was being ruled by someone at the time, but I'm not quite certain exactly who
-A number of Rajput states (in Rajastan and Uttar Pradash) resisted Moghul rule, particularly Udai Singh the Sesodia Rana of Mewar
-Akbar's first openent was "shah" Hemu of Sur (I think they had territories in the Panjab, Awadh and Fwalior)who took Delhi itself and might have driven the Moghuls out of India in 1556, had he not been killed in Battle. Even after Hemu die the Panjab, Awadh, and Fwalior were still controlled by Sur rulers
-Sri Lanki was inhabited, although Sri Lanki really didn't seem to have much influence on mainland events. The Moghuls never did capture it, nor did they ever try. But I'm pretty sure there was an independant kingdom there.
Other stuff:
-It is unrealistic to provide the War Elephant as a unique Moghul unit since War Elephants were heavily used by other powers like the Sur, anybody on the subcontinent could concievably have used them. Maybe you should place an "elephant" resource to represent this. (there is an elephent resource available Warhammer mod uses it for one, or you could use ivory)
-While there were horses avialable in the subcontinent these were one of the few goods that Indians imported in mass quantities. (I don't know why but India always had a shortage of good horses, it was perhaps one of the reasons why so many peoples from central asia were able to effectively raid northern India) In general central Asian horses were the best. The one of the vijanager rulers is reputed to have paid European traders even for horse that died in transit in order to encourage the import of horse into his kingdom. So maybe you could either:
- Have two horse rescources, one for the poor local horse and one for the better european/central asian breeds
or
- Have horses be entirely controlled by Persia (and maybe one of the northern Moghul cities) and Europeans, allow some crappy cavalry units to be built without requiring horses, but require horses for the good ones.
The Moghuls were already using firearms during Babur's invasion of India; his soldiers used both light artillery and muskets. Babur's excellent combination of cavalry and firearms tactics were the reason why Moghuls succesfullly entered into the Subcontinent in the first place. (The most incredible example is the battle of Paniput, where he defeated a foe who outnumberes him 10 to 1)
While Europeans were present in the subcontinent, and were important participants in trade, they conrolled very little Land until after Aurengzeb's reign. They had a number of small coastal outposts, one of which was Bombay (this city was founded as "Bon Bahia" by the portugesee and transferred to Birthish rule in the 1660s) Calicut was also an important cite for trade, although I don't believe the portugeuse ever ascerted actual political control there. Cochin was owned by the dutch. Surat was controlled by Moghuls but also was an important trade center. Before the arrival of Europeans, the Coromandel Coast and Gujarat were the most important trading areas in India. By the way, pretty much the only things Europeans traded with Indian rulers besides horse were gold and silver, the local rulers had no interest in any other goods the Europeans could manufacture at the time (all the local goods were of higher quality)
-Anyway my suggestion is that any European city should have the minimum cultural value possible. Europeans exerted little cultural influence on South Asia at this time period and furthermore, controlled no lands outside of thier outposts.
One other thing, you have Hinduism and Christianity available as researchable technologies, what about Islam? This was the religion of all the Mughols (except arguably Akbar, whose religion still was heavily influenced by it) as well as many other of the dominant powers of the time.
I figure I should cite the source of most of my knowledge:
John Keay, India: A History
(I'm also taking a course on S. Asian history at the University of Illinios at Chicago)
Historical Observations and Suggestions
-There were no significant Maratha rulers until the reighn of Aurengzeb, the last of the "great" Moghul emporerors (ruled 1658-1707) The significant powers around Akbar's reighn were instead:
-The Bahmanid Sultanate Successor Kingdoms: (Ahmadnagar, Bijapur, Bidar, Berar, Golconda) These guys were in the central Deccan
-The Vijayanagar Kingdom; traditional revival kingdom of the Bahmanids, they were (according to some historians) the first hindu nationalist state
These guys were in the far South, they were defeated decivevily by the successor kingdoms to the Bahmanid Sultanate in 1664 and were forced to abandon thier capital
-Bengal Indeed was being ruled by someone at the time, but I'm not quite certain exactly who
-A number of Rajput states (in Rajastan and Uttar Pradash) resisted Moghul rule, particularly Udai Singh the Sesodia Rana of Mewar
-Akbar's first openent was "shah" Hemu of Sur (I think they had territories in the Panjab, Awadh and Fwalior)who took Delhi itself and might have driven the Moghuls out of India in 1556, had he not been killed in Battle. Even after Hemu die the Panjab, Awadh, and Fwalior were still controlled by Sur rulers
-Sri Lanki was inhabited, although Sri Lanki really didn't seem to have much influence on mainland events. The Moghuls never did capture it, nor did they ever try. But I'm pretty sure there was an independant kingdom there.
Other stuff:
-It is unrealistic to provide the War Elephant as a unique Moghul unit since War Elephants were heavily used by other powers like the Sur, anybody on the subcontinent could concievably have used them. Maybe you should place an "elephant" resource to represent this. (there is an elephent resource available Warhammer mod uses it for one, or you could use ivory)
-While there were horses avialable in the subcontinent these were one of the few goods that Indians imported in mass quantities. (I don't know why but India always had a shortage of good horses, it was perhaps one of the reasons why so many peoples from central asia were able to effectively raid northern India) In general central Asian horses were the best. The one of the vijanager rulers is reputed to have paid European traders even for horse that died in transit in order to encourage the import of horse into his kingdom. So maybe you could either:
- Have two horse rescources, one for the poor local horse and one for the better european/central asian breeds
or
- Have horses be entirely controlled by Persia (and maybe one of the northern Moghul cities) and Europeans, allow some crappy cavalry units to be built without requiring horses, but require horses for the good ones.
The Moghuls were already using firearms during Babur's invasion of India; his soldiers used both light artillery and muskets. Babur's excellent combination of cavalry and firearms tactics were the reason why Moghuls succesfullly entered into the Subcontinent in the first place. (The most incredible example is the battle of Paniput, where he defeated a foe who outnumberes him 10 to 1)
While Europeans were present in the subcontinent, and were important participants in trade, they conrolled very little Land until after Aurengzeb's reign. They had a number of small coastal outposts, one of which was Bombay (this city was founded as "Bon Bahia" by the portugesee and transferred to Birthish rule in the 1660s) Calicut was also an important cite for trade, although I don't believe the portugeuse ever ascerted actual political control there. Cochin was owned by the dutch. Surat was controlled by Moghuls but also was an important trade center. Before the arrival of Europeans, the Coromandel Coast and Gujarat were the most important trading areas in India. By the way, pretty much the only things Europeans traded with Indian rulers besides horse were gold and silver, the local rulers had no interest in any other goods the Europeans could manufacture at the time (all the local goods were of higher quality)
-Anyway my suggestion is that any European city should have the minimum cultural value possible. Europeans exerted little cultural influence on South Asia at this time period and furthermore, controlled no lands outside of thier outposts.
One other thing, you have Hinduism and Christianity available as researchable technologies, what about Islam? This was the religion of all the Mughols (except arguably Akbar, whose religion still was heavily influenced by it) as well as many other of the dominant powers of the time.
I figure I should cite the source of most of my knowledge:
John Keay, India: A History
(I'm also taking a course on S. Asian history at the University of Illinios at Chicago)
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
Thanks for your heavily information about this. I will take a look at this and maybe make another version.
Cabbit
Part-time Spaceship
I found a pretty good map of the Deccan w/ the Vijanager Kingdom and the Bahmani Sultanate Successor States at:
http://www215.pair.com/sacoins/images/maps/deccan_16thc.gif
The Subcontinent on the eve of Babur's Invasion:
http://www215.pair.com/sacoins/images/maps/babur_1526.gif
The Moghul Empire at Akbar's Death:
http://www215.pair.com/sacoins/images/maps/mughal_akbar.gif
Edit:
Here is also a highly inaccurate, but in fact contemporary map of Sri Lanka:
http://www.travelsrilanka.com/maps/sanchez/index.php
http://www215.pair.com/sacoins/images/maps/deccan_16thc.gif
The Subcontinent on the eve of Babur's Invasion:
http://www215.pair.com/sacoins/images/maps/babur_1526.gif
The Moghul Empire at Akbar's Death:
http://www215.pair.com/sacoins/images/maps/mughal_akbar.gif
Edit:
Here is also a highly inaccurate, but in fact contemporary map of Sri Lanka:
http://www.travelsrilanka.com/maps/sanchez/index.php
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
Thanks a lot man!! These was really good!
These was really good!silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
So when can we expect a update?
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
I have so much other projects going on, so it can take some time, but maybe late October-November.
Cabbit
Part-time Spaceship
Some more historical stuff I can add:
Find chinese ship units for South Asian civilizations, these were the primary type of vessals that were utiziled in the Indian Ocean area in general by both South Asian and Arab traders. Also, these things were HUGE. The average portugeuse caraval is something like a quarter of the size of the larger trade veseels sailing the Indian Ocean at the time. The portugeuse vessels, however, were much faster, more manueverable, more rugged (they were designed for the stormy atlantic, while the Indian Ocean was much calmer) and more heavily armed. Indeed, until the Portuguese instituted a policy of open piracy in the Indian Ocean most trading vessels were unarmed.
Also, do you have a good source for the History of the Moghuls themselves? If you don't I can try and write summaries for you. If you are interested enough in the subject, you might actually considering buying Keay's book, which is a comprehensive and recent history of the Indian Subcontinent through the Indus Valley Civilization up to the modern period. It's a $20 (US) book, but compared to most textbooks, that's cheap.
Find chinese ship units for South Asian civilizations, these were the primary type of vessals that were utiziled in the Indian Ocean area in general by both South Asian and Arab traders. Also, these things were HUGE. The average portugeuse caraval is something like a quarter of the size of the larger trade veseels sailing the Indian Ocean at the time. The portugeuse vessels, however, were much faster, more manueverable, more rugged (they were designed for the stormy atlantic, while the Indian Ocean was much calmer) and more heavily armed. Indeed, until the Portuguese instituted a policy of open piracy in the Indian Ocean most trading vessels were unarmed.
Also, do you have a good source for the History of the Moghuls themselves? If you don't I can try and write summaries for you. If you are interested enough in the subject, you might actually considering buying Keay's book, which is a comprehensive and recent history of the Indian Subcontinent through the Indus Valley Civilization up to the modern period. It's a $20 (US) book, but compared to most textbooks, that's cheap.
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
Thanks for the info.
I have found very much about it on "en.wikipedia.org". But I think it would have been great to get summaries from you, so just start writing. You helps me to make this scenario much more historical accurate.
I have found very much about it on "en.wikipedia.org". But I think it would have been great to get summaries from you, so just start writing. You helps me to make this scenario much more historical accurate.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Hi Luddi, I notice your last post on this thread was some time ago now. Are you still active on the forums and did you ever make a start on upgrading this scenario?
I've downloaded and started playing and it's a pretty cool scenario. The gameplay is pretty realistic but I believe a lot of Cabbit's suggestions would lift the game further, especially with regard to historical accuracy and other civs. I won't go into feedback until I've played more but there is much that can be added and if Cabbit's still around it would be good to brush it up further. It is afterall a hugely popular era and location in history for mod players. I too know a fair bit about this region's history, particularly this period and I find all of Cabbit's comments valid. There would be plenty of support and ideas for your upgrade.
Anyway, hope you're aroud and up for it.
I've downloaded and started playing and it's a pretty cool scenario. The gameplay is pretty realistic but I believe a lot of Cabbit's suggestions would lift the game further, especially with regard to historical accuracy and other civs. I won't go into feedback until I've played more but there is much that can be added and if Cabbit's still around it would be good to brush it up further. It is afterall a hugely popular era and location in history for mod players. I too know a fair bit about this region's history, particularly this period and I find all of Cabbit's comments valid. There would be plenty of support and ideas for your upgrade.
Anyway, hope you're aroud and up for it.
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
Hi Rambuchan, thanks for your feedback. And I'm on good way with the upgrade, but I haven't done so much in the last few months because I have so much other projects.
Luddi VII
Sheep farmer
When I get some time I will post some previews.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Well I look forward to them Luddi 
. Didn't manage to play that far into my game (real life! cha! 
) so I can't really give in-depth feedback.
Just briefly though, here is some stuff I have spat out, hope you find some gems:
Firstly, I believe following Cabbit's suggestions would be a good starting point for the upgrade. I know a fair bit about this land and particularly this period of its history and find all of Cabbit's point are valid. It's a popular period of history for players and many have good knowledge of the period so gobbling up all the support and feedback would be advisable.
The little I played I found there was little scope for diplomatic tomfoolery. One significant feature of this land's history at the time was the amount of treachery involved. Kingdoms (especially in the south and also up in Afghanistan) were easily persuaded to fight for one king one year and then they would fight another the next year. This was a more telling and effective dynamic in the period's history than the military strategies used. Having more civs on this map would emulate this immediately and allowing the negotiation of peace (instead of locked alliances) would also re-create this. I know a bit about this era in history and would like to suggest the following civ list to help achieve this (* = Muslim, + = Hindu, ~ = Buddhist, " = Christian. Locations I refer to are from your v1.1 map):
- Mughal* (where you have them now, but just off the back of a successful campaign in Afghan lands, military should mainly be up there at start)
- Persian* (as now, yes they had much better horses than the Indians and profited from the South Indian lack of good horses))
- Rajputs+ (between Persians and Mughals, in the desert. Fierce fighters who never fully submitted to Akbar or any Mughal king - not even the British. Used guerilla style tactics, might have used camels also)
- Ahmadnagar+ (in the space between the Mughals and Maratas, mediocre players on the scene who got dispatched by Vijayanagara)
- Bijapur+ (in the northern Marata cities, these guys got crushed by Vijayanagara)
- Vijayanagara+ (BIG rivals for the Mughals in the south, these guys dominated the Deccan plateau for a good hundred years covering Akbar's lifetime)
- Ceylon / Lanka ~ (not much I know of but they were there, small time, traders)
- Bengal * (got dispatched by Akbar but held important trading posts in the Bay of Bengal, were quite wealthy)
- Golkonda + (these lands were like the Holy Grail for loads of conquerers of India, the famous Golkonda gem mines which produced the world famous Kohinoor (Mountain of Light/Star of India) Diamond was a very big reason for the attraction. Kings in Golkonda had been trading gold and silver to the Romans in their heyday. This was a hugely wealthy kingdom able to afford the best Persian finance ministers and generals) Gotta have these guys in!
- Europeans": Portuguese were around but only just acquired Goa around your start date (was formerly held by Bijapur then annexed by Vijayanagara). Vijayanagara were dealing with them to deny the supply of horses to the Bijapuris. French, Dutch and British all came later but don't play a massive part in this period. Europeans were stictly low culture, low military, peaceful traders at this point).
- Also consider Bahminids + (they were around with Bijapur and Ahmadnagar but I think the map would get cramped)
Your unit values all seem to be well balanced although I would perhaps have liked to reach more military techs. Better cavalry, more refined firearms etc.
Yes Mughals should start with gunpowder. No they shouldn't have easy access to Elephants. Mughals under Akbar were up against it south of Delhi (he lost this city early in his reign only to regain) and they should have to fight for the right to produce war elephants. These elephants were the stars of the Deccan armies (Golkonda, Vijaya, Bijapur, Ahmadnagar).
Like I say, the tech tree is rather limiting. So other techs I can suggest: - Yes 'ISLAM' should definitely be in. This was the MAJOR religion of the era. Also you can rub Islam off against the Hindus in the south in a similar way to Catholicim vs. Protestantism in the Age of Discvry. scenario. Bit mroe intense hatred though. This was another crucial dynamic of the period. Islam and it's culture, aside from the faith, brought great architectural advances to the Indian lands. - 'Religious Tolerance' was also a very significant factor in ruling these lands, one which Akbar paid a lot of attention to, in turn owing to his success. - 'Piracy' became rampant throughout this period, state policy from Portugal, Chinese pirates came into the picture also. - 'Spiritualism' (in the Sufi tradition) was big back in the day. - 'Imperialism', it became quite clear during Akbar's reign that his empire's infrastructure and administration were superior to his rivals'. There soon arose a consensus that Akbar was an Imperial Ruler rather than just a king.
Well I've got to get back to work. Hope that helps. Do ask more questions, happy to support you and feed you with info during the upgrade.
. Didn't manage to play that far into my game (real life! cha! ) so I can't really give in-depth feedback. Just briefly though, here is some stuff I have spat out, hope you find some gems:
Firstly, I believe following Cabbit's suggestions would be a good starting point for the upgrade. I know a fair bit about this land and particularly this period of its history and find all of Cabbit's point are valid. It's a popular period of history for players and many have good knowledge of the period so gobbling up all the support and feedback would be advisable.
The little I played I found there was little scope for diplomatic tomfoolery. One significant feature of this land's history at the time was the amount of treachery involved. Kingdoms (especially in the south and also up in Afghanistan) were easily persuaded to fight for one king one year and then they would fight another the next year. This was a more telling and effective dynamic in the period's history than the military strategies used. Having more civs on this map would emulate this immediately and allowing the negotiation of peace (instead of locked alliances) would also re-create this. I know a bit about this era in history and would like to suggest the following civ list to help achieve this (* = Muslim, + = Hindu, ~ = Buddhist, " = Christian. Locations I refer to are from your v1.1 map):
- Mughal* (where you have them now, but just off the back of a successful campaign in Afghan lands, military should mainly be up there at start)
- Persian* (as now, yes they had much better horses than the Indians and profited from the South Indian lack of good horses))
- Rajputs+ (between Persians and Mughals, in the desert. Fierce fighters who never fully submitted to Akbar or any Mughal king - not even the British. Used guerilla style tactics, might have used camels also)
- Ahmadnagar+ (in the space between the Mughals and Maratas, mediocre players on the scene who got dispatched by Vijayanagara)
- Bijapur+ (in the northern Marata cities, these guys got crushed by Vijayanagara)
- Vijayanagara+ (BIG rivals for the Mughals in the south, these guys dominated the Deccan plateau for a good hundred years covering Akbar's lifetime)
- Ceylon / Lanka ~ (not much I know of but they were there, small time, traders)
- Bengal * (got dispatched by Akbar but held important trading posts in the Bay of Bengal, were quite wealthy)
- Golkonda + (these lands were like the Holy Grail for loads of conquerers of India, the famous Golkonda gem mines which produced the world famous Kohinoor (Mountain of Light/Star of India) Diamond was a very big reason for the attraction. Kings in Golkonda had been trading gold and silver to the Romans in their heyday. This was a hugely wealthy kingdom able to afford the best Persian finance ministers and generals) Gotta have these guys in!
- Europeans": Portuguese were around but only just acquired Goa around your start date (was formerly held by Bijapur then annexed by Vijayanagara). Vijayanagara were dealing with them to deny the supply of horses to the Bijapuris. French, Dutch and British all came later but don't play a massive part in this period. Europeans were stictly low culture, low military, peaceful traders at this point).
- Also consider Bahminids + (they were around with Bijapur and Ahmadnagar but I think the map would get cramped)
Your unit values all seem to be well balanced although I would perhaps have liked to reach more military techs. Better cavalry, more refined firearms etc.
Yes Mughals should start with gunpowder. No they shouldn't have easy access to Elephants. Mughals under Akbar were up against it south of Delhi (he lost this city early in his reign only to regain) and they should have to fight for the right to produce war elephants. These elephants were the stars of the Deccan armies (Golkonda, Vijaya, Bijapur, Ahmadnagar).
Like I say, the tech tree is rather limiting. So other techs I can suggest: - Yes 'ISLAM' should definitely be in. This was the MAJOR religion of the era. Also you can rub Islam off against the Hindus in the south in a similar way to Catholicim vs. Protestantism in the Age of Discvry. scenario. Bit mroe intense hatred though. This was another crucial dynamic of the period. Islam and it's culture, aside from the faith, brought great architectural advances to the Indian lands. - 'Religious Tolerance' was also a very significant factor in ruling these lands, one which Akbar paid a lot of attention to, in turn owing to his success. - 'Piracy' became rampant throughout this period, state policy from Portugal, Chinese pirates came into the picture also. - 'Spiritualism' (in the Sufi tradition) was big back in the day. - 'Imperialism', it became quite clear during Akbar's reign that his empire's infrastructure and administration were superior to his rivals'. There soon arose a consensus that Akbar was an Imperial Ruler rather than just a king.
Well I've got to get back to work. Hope that helps. Do ask more questions, happy to support you and feed you with info during the upgrade.
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