Rumsfeld Weakens a Pillar of War.

andrewgprv

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3717024.stm

Donald Rumsfeld has a habit of speaking his mind and damning the consequences, but his latest outburst - that there was no strong evidence linking al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein - could have considerable consequences.

Donald Rumsfeld's frankness has got him into the headlines again
At a critical moment in the presidential election campaign, with Democratic candidate John Kerry arguing that the war against Iraq was a "colossal error of judgement", the defence secretary has weakened one of the pillars on which the war was justified.

This pillar was the claim that Saddam Hussein represented an unacceptable threat because he had links with al-Qaeda and might give it or another group access to weapons of mass destruction.

By questioning the significance of the intelligence, Mr Rumsfeld is undermining his own side and is handing an argument to the Kerry camp


The actual words Mr Rumsfeld used in his comments on Monday to the Council on Foreign Relations in New York were: "To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two."

He also said he had seen the intelligence "migrate in amazing ways", without explaining what that meant.

His statement was in marked contrast to what he said in September 2002 when he described the evidence of a link as "bullet-proof."

He did not however provide the evidence on that occasion.

After his latest comments, Mr Rumsfeld was forced to issue a statement saying that he had been "regrettably misunderstood."

He had, the statement said, always accepted the CIA evidence that there had been contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

But the damage was done. While he had not said there was no evidence, he had suggested the evidence was not strong.

By questioning the significance of the intelligence, Mr Rumsfeld is undermining his own side and is handing an argument to the Kerry camp.

President's view

President Bush has often made a connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda and has made much of it. In his State of the Union address before the war, he said: "Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al-Qaeda."

And Vice-President Dick Cheney said in June that the evidence was "overwhelming" and accused the media of being "lazy" in not accepting this.

So what is the intelligence?

Part of it was laid out in an article in June in USA Today by Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley.

Quoting from a report compiled for the National Commission investigating the 11 September 2001 attacks, he listed the following:


Osama Bin Laden explored possible co-operation with Iraq during his time in Sudan.

A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting Bin Laden in 1994. Mr Cheney has additionally claimed that the officer was a brigadier general who trained al-Qaeda in bomb-making and document forgery.

Contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda also occurred after Bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan.

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi (leader of the most extreme of the Islamist groups now operating in Iraq) and nearly two dozen al-Qaeda associates were in Baghdad before the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime. Zarqawi's network operated an explosives and poisons facility in north-east Iraq.
Mr Hadley made no mention of an earlier report that the 9/11 plot leader Mohammed Atta had met an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague. This report still has its advocates but has never been confirmed.

Commission's conclusion

The 9/11 Commission accepted that there had been contacts between Iraq and Osama Bin Laden but said there was "no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship".

Incidentally, Mr Rumsfeld also undermined the other pillar on which the case for war rested - that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

In his latest remarks he admitted that the intelligence had been "wrong."

He therefore switched from a position he had adopted only the previous day when he said in a Fox TV interview: "I believe they were there and I'm surprised we have not found them yet."

Bremer's admission

The Rumsfeld outburst was accompanied by an admission from the former US administrator of Iraq Paul Bremer.

While justifying the actual war, he said the US had "paid a big price" by not enough having enough troops there to maintain order.

He was thereby casting doubt on the judgement of the Bush administration - just as Mr Kerry has.

Mr Bush and Mr Cheney could have done without such remarks from Mr Rumsfeld and Mr Bremer at this time.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3433613.stm

President George W Bush:

State of the Union address, 29 January 2003:
Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein faced the prospect of being the last casualty in a war he had started and lost. To spare himself, he agreed to disarm of all weapons of mass destruction. For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological and nuclear weapons even while inspectors were in his country...

Statement to UN, 7 February 2003:
The regime has never accounted for a vast arsenal of deadly biological and chemical weapons.

Speech to supporters in Oak Ridge, July 2004:
Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq...

We removed a declared enemy of America, who had the capability of producing weapons of mass destruction and could have passed that capability to terrorists bent on acquiring them....

In the world after 11 September, that was a risk we could not afford to take. We must confront serious dangers before they fully materialise.



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Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld

News conference, 12 March 2003:
He claims to have no chemical or biological weapons, yet we know he continues to hide biological and chemical weapons, moving them to different locations as often as every 12 to 24 hours, and placing them in residential neighbourhoods.

Report to US Senate Armed Services Committee, July 2003:
The coalition did not act in Iraq because we had discovered dramatic new evidence of Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. We acted because we saw the evidence in a dramatic new light - through the prism of our experience on 9/11.

Addressing the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, October 2004:
It turns out that we have not found weapons of mass destruction and why the intelligence proved wrong, I'm not in a position to say. I simply don't know. But the world is a lot better off with Saddam Hussein in jail...



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David Kay, chief US arms investigator in Iraq:

BBC interview, October 2003:
We've found a strong body of evidence with regard to the intentions of Saddam Hussein to continue to attempt to acquire WMD... No one doubts that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction pre-1991. But 13 years of UN activity, including Dr Blix, was unable to confirm that the Iraqis had actually gotten rid of all those weapons as they claim.

US National Public Radio interview, 25 January 2004:
I don't think they [Iraqi WMD] exist... I actually think the intelligence community owes the president [an apology], rather than the president owing the American people.


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IRAQ AND AL-QAEDA
President George W Bush

Speech in Cincinnati, October 2002:
We know that Iraq and the al-Qaeda terrorist network share a common enemy - the United States of America. We know that Iraq and al Qaeda have had high-level contacts that go back a decade. Some al-Qaeda leaders who fled Afghanistan went to Iraq. These include one very senior al-Qaeda leader who received medical treatment in Baghdad this year, and who has been associated with planning for chemical and biological attacks.

We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases. And we know that after 11 September, Saddam Hussein's regime gleefully celebrated the terrorist attacks on America...

Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints.

News conference, June 2004:
The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al-Qaeda is because there was a relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda...

This administration never said that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated between Saddam and al-Qaeda. We did say there were numerous contacts between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda.



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Vice-President Dick Cheney

Interview on CNBC, June 2004:
There clearly was a relationship. It's been testified to. The evidence is overwhelming...

It goes back to the early '90s. It involves a whole series of contacts, high-level contacts with Osama Bin Laden and Iraqi intelligence officials...



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Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld

Pentagon news conference, September 2002:
We have what we consider to be very reliable reporting of senior level contacts going back a decade, and of possible chemical and biological agent training. And when I say contacts, I mean between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

We have what we believe to be credible information that Iraq and al Qaeda have discussed safe-haven opportunities in Iraq, reciprocal non-aggression discussions. We have what we consider to be credible evidence that al Qaeda leaders have sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire... weapons of mass destruction capabilities.

Addressing the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, 4 October 2004:
I have seen the answer to that question [the allegation of links between Iraq and al-Qaeda] migrate in the intelligence community over a period of a year in the most amazing way... To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two.

I just read an intelligence report recently about one person who's connected to al-Qaeda who was in and out of Iraq... It may have been something that was not representative of a hard linkage.

Statement on Pentagon website, 5 October 2004:
I have acknowledged since September 2002 that there were ties between Al Qaeda and Iraq... based upon points provided to me by then CIA Director, George Tenet...
 
IIRC most of the Bush staff will retire after election, even if they win, i think rice, rumsfeld ,powell and cheney, all will retire.

So i guess he do not care anymore, i even suspect that he is tired himself about Bush.
 
Incidentally, Mr Rumsfeld also undermined the other pillar on which the case for war rested - that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

In his latest remarks he admitted that the intelligence had been "wrong."

He therefore switched from a position he had adopted only the previous day when he said in a Fox TV interview: "I believe they were there and I'm surprised we have not found them yet."

But,but,but,but,but John Kerry is a flip-flopper, so you shouldn't vote for him! :rolleyes:
 
shadowdude said:
What amazes me is that Kerry called Iraq a "colossal error of judgement" yet he voted for the war.

Wrong. He voted to give the president the authority to use force, five months before the war broke out. What this means is Kerry can't be held responsible for the manner in which the war was conducted, and 'colossal error of judgment' is putting it mildly to describe that [manner].

But this thread is about Rumsfeld and others who suddenly say drastically different things than they used to. I don't see why it should suddenly be switched to anti-Kerry trolling.
 
Wasn't Rummy slammed by a congressional enquiry a couple of weeks ago? IIRC it was something to do with a culture of sadism permeating down from Rummy to Abu Graib. He might be getting worried that Kerry might win and is sticking the knife into his own party to avoid ending up in the Hague for war crimes.

Kerry didn't deny the accusation made by Bush during the debate that he would sign America up for the iternational criminal court IIRC.
 
jack merchant said:
Wrong. He voted to give the president the authority to use force, five months before the war broke out. What this means is Kerry can't be held responsible for the manner in which the war was conducted, and 'colossal error of judgment' is putting it mildly to describe that [manner].
And if you're voting to authorize the President to use force against Iraq then what are voting for? The war!

By saying "colossal error of judgement" Kerry made it obvious especially in Thursday's debates, that he was refering to the Iraq war.

jack merchant said:
But this thread is about Rumsfeld and others who suddenly say drastically different things than they used to. I don't see why it should suddenly be switched to anti-Kerry trolling.
Kerry says things that quite different than what he said before too. I think that just about all politicians have flip-flopped, Rumsfeld is just another example. When he called the evidence "bullet proof" before the war, but later says he "has not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two" just proves that he is 1. incompetent, 2. lieing, or 3. both
 
shadowdude said:
And if you're voting to authorize the President to use force against Iraq then what are voting for? The war!

I don't agree - like I said, the authority vote occurred 5 months before the war started. At that point, going through the UN or other diplomatic options were still firmly on the table - the result of the vote was to strengthen Bush's bargaining power there. Maybe Bush and the neocons wanted to go to war alll along, but they certainly took pains not to reveal that to the public.

shadowdude said:
By saying "colossal error of judgement" Kerry made it obvious especially in Thursday's debates, that he was refering to the Iraq war.

Well it is, isn't it ?

shadowdude said:
Kerry says things that quite different than what he said before too. I think that just about all politicians have flip-flopped, Rumsfeld is just another example. When he called the evidence "bullet proof" before the war, but later says he "has not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two" just proves that he is 1. incompetent, 2. lieing, or 3. both

I'd pick option 3 there. But Kerry's position is nowhere near as inconsistent as it's been made out to be.
 
jack merchant said:
I don't agree - like I said, the authority vote occurred 5 months before the war started. At that point, going through the UN or other diplomatic options were still firmly on the table - the result of the vote was to strengthen Bush's bargaining power there. Maybe Bush and the neocons wanted to go to war alll along, but they certainly took pains not to reveal that to the public.
A vote for war is still a vote war, wheter it was 5 days before or 5 months before. If Kerry says Bush made "colossal error of judgement" in deciding to invade Iraq, than John Kerry too has made a colossal error of judgement in authorizing the use of force against Iraq. He would be as responsible as Bush by his own line of thought
 
Like the old saying, success has many parents but failure is always an orphan. Sounds like another one of the rats is scrambling to leave a sinking ship. Especially galling considering how stridently Rummy and the other neo-cons pushed for war in the first place. Now he says that the pre-war intelligence has somehow 'migrated' (WTH does that mean?).
 
samildanach said:
Kerry didn't deny the accusation made by Bush during the debate that he would sign America up for the iternational criminal court IIRC.
I recognized that, too, and thought in the same moment that might cost him some votes. Certainly not mine, if I'd be American. ;)
 
shadowdude said:
A vote for war is still a vote war, wheter it was 5 days before or 5 months before.

Yes, but it wasn't a vote for war ! The vote made war an option, not an inevitability.

shadowdude said:
If Kerry says Bush made "colossal error of judgement" in deciding to invade Iraq, than John Kerry too has made a colossal error of judgement in authorizing the use of force against Iraq. He would be as responsible as Bush by his own line of thought

No he's not, because the CEoJ refers to the way in which the war was started and how it was conducted - without enough allies, with not enough troops on the ground, and without a plan to win the peace. The president and his administration alone are accountable for that.
 
shadowdude said:
A vote for war is still a vote war, wheter it was 5 days before or 5 months before. If Kerry says Bush made "colossal error of judgement" in deciding to invade Iraq, than John Kerry too has made a colossal error of judgement in authorizing the use of force against Iraq. He would be as responsible as Bush by his own line of thought

If your parents gave you their credit card to use in case of an emergency, and you decided to buy digital entertainment system it doesn't mean your parents gave you the authority to do it. They gave you a certain power expecting that you'll be responsible, but if you're not, you can't say that it's their fault for giving you the credit card. If they didn't, in case of an emergency you're S* out of luck.

But this article is about Rumsfield, and I think that Rumsfield is too overconfident of himself. He always try to speak in that philosphical tone, but end up making a fool of himself because he's incoherent.
 
jack merchant said:
Yes, but it wasn't a vote for war ! The vote made war an option, not an inevitability.
Even at 5 months before the war, it was quite clear [to me] that war was going to be the choice Bush would make. Another UN resolution or some cheesey diplomatic agreement wouldn't have made any difference or satisfied Bush. If you have to vote in the senate on whether or not authorize the use of force against another nation, you're probably going to war.

stratego said:
If your parents gave you their credit card to use in case of an emergency, and you decided to buy digital entertainment system it doesn't mean your parents gave you the authority to do it.(No, but they gave me the means) They gave you a certain power expecting that you'll be responsible, but if you're not, you can't say that it's their fault for giving you the credit card.(Once again,they gave me the means) If they didn't, in case of an emergency you're S* out of luck.
If I gave out the password to my account here, and then the person I gave it to got me banned, who is responsible?mostly ME, however some blame lies on the other person too.

Both situations are different, but in both scenarios, the blame is shared be it equally or unequally.
 
shadowdude said:
Even at 5 months before the war, it was quite clear [to me] that war was going to be the choice Bush would make. Another UN resolution or some cheesey diplomatic agreement wouldn't have made any difference or satisfied Bush. If you have to vote in the senate on whether or not authorize the use of force against another nation, you're probably going to war.

If I gave out the password to my account here, and then the person I gave it to got me banned, who is responsible?mostly ME, however some blame lies on the other person too.

Both situations are different, but in both scenarios, the blame is shared be it equally or unequally.

But you wouldn't give your password to someone you didn't trust. It would be reasonable to give your password to the President, but should you take the blame if Bush, whose job is to look out for your interests, got you banned?
 
Bigfoot said:
Like the old saying, success has many parents but failure is always an orphan. Sounds like another one of the rats is scrambling to leave a sinking ship. Especially galling considering how stridently Rummy and the other neo-cons pushed for war in the first place. Now he says that the pre-war intelligence has somehow 'migrated' (WTH does that mean?).

When he is talking about "intelligence migrating in amazing ways" one assumes he is talking about the incident where intelligence documents tried to migrate out of a secure area inside a democrats pants :lol: . But who knows with rummy.
 
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