Runner up 'prize' for not reasearching a religion first

[subanark]

The idea of "Defenders of the Faith" could reduce war
I am not familiar with any other mod that moves holy cities and I see this being a considerable challenge for a small thing. Like a great scientist with writing the holy city is the reward you get for getting to the way tech first.

This is designed as a discouragement from hording religions. If you found a religion and adopt you will not lose the holy city, if you start to get greedy and found more than one, expect to lose the one you are not using.

 

[Mesix]

This is designed as a discouragement from hording religions. If you found a religion and adopt you will not lose the holy city, if you start to get greedy and found more than one, expect to lose the one you are not using.

I don't mind only getting the one city for the religion that I found. I just conquer the other cities so that I can have the shrines that I want.

 

[Mithrus]

Note: This question is directed to Kael and Co.

Just to clarify, is the actual intent of FfH that a Civ should NOT be able to found multiple religions? Currently, the same city is typically chosen for each religion you found. (For the first 3 relions, it is usually the second city you found.)

 

[Kael]

Note: This question is directed to Kael and Co.

Just to clarify, is the actual intent of FfH that a Civ should NOT be able to found multiple religions? Currently, the same city is typically chosen for each religion you found. (For the first 3 relions, it is usually the second city you found.)

We tried to find a good balance in the tech tree to make the religions an appropriate distance from one another. We didn't want it to be to easy to get them all (several religion granting techs off of the same requirement) but we wanted to a "religion rush" to be possible is a player wanted to try to grab a large portion of the holy cities (especially under lower difficulty levels).

 

[Chandrasekhar]

There should still be a decision point: do I keep going and get the booby prize, or do I shift gears right now? make the booby prize too attractive, and poof goes the decision point.

if you have a holy city you shouldnt be able to found a new religion either.

I don't have too much to add to the discussion at this point, but I'd like to just throw in my support for these two statements (though I'm not sure if the second is possible or desireable by Kael & Co).

One other thing: if it's possible to change war weariness based on your religion and the religion of your foes, that would also be a nice change. Seems that I'm always leading my Orderly empire to war against a bunch of seafood worshippers, and then my people suddenly get tired of it and riot. If war is going to be the most viable path to victory, I'd very much like it to be made a bit easier for the aggressor.

 

[Sureshot]

Note: This question is directed to Kael and Co.

Just to clarify, is the actual intent of FfH that a Civ should NOT be able to found multiple religions? Currently, the same city is typically chosen for each religion you found. (For the first 3 relions, it is usually the second city you found.)

it would be nice if it was impossible (or atleast not likely like it is now) for multiple religions to have the same holy city. at the moment, if you found multiple religions they all start in the same city.

would be really nice if this didnt happen, for the same reason kael said that holy cities dont start in your capital (i.e. to not put all your eggs in one basket and to spread the love around)

im hugely in favour of random city gets the religion as a runner up prize (disciple would be "better" but not sure its necessarily deserved if you missed out, and getting the religion at all anywhere is fine)

definately agree about not getting the runner up prize if you have a state religion already (personally id rather it was just impossible for agnostic and those with other religions to research the way of techs at all). itd be easy to make the way of techs disabled for grigori and illians, since its already done for the barbarians and its easily done in the civilizations infos xml file.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

We tried to find a good balance in the tech tree to make the religions an appropriate distance from one another. We didn't want it to be to easy to get them all (several religion granting techs off of the same requirement) but we wanted to a "religion rush" to be possible is a player wanted to try to grab a large portion of the holy cities (especially under lower difficulty levels).

Huzzah.

The 'religion rush' is fine and it is near-essential if the game is intended to support strategies that play against the sterotype, e.g. the 'Fallen Bannor' or the 'Redeemed Orcs'. The most practical way to move two alignments is to invent two religions.

There is no question that having a substantial number of Priests from two different religions is a powerful force in FfH. But the list of 'powerful forces' in FfH is a long one.

IMO it comes down to which system allows the AI to function best when the player is religion-rushing. The issue with religion-rushing is not how powerful it makes the player civilization. The issue is how badly does this* hamstring AI development? A better question is, how badly does this* affect AI development in version 0.16? Some religious effects were de-emphasised in 0.16.

(* 'This' = 100% failure to gain a religious benefit for second-placers.)

 

[Sureshot]

you don't need to found 2 religions to have 2 religions tho (so if you couldnt found more than 1 religion then the system would still support all examples given).

about priests, it seems like they might benefit from having a national limit, higher than higher tiers mind you, like 12, but some set amount so they don't become the mainstay (national limits on every units would be nice to stop the 100's of units some people are having in their games causing slow turns).

 

[Grey Fox]

Not much point beelining for religion in MP games with this change... Might aswell go for military while some fool researches a religion for me.

 

[Sureshot]

you still need to get the religion tech if you want to build temples and spread the religion even if you luck out and get it spread to you... better to get it first so you get the wonder, the gold, choice of religion, and early decent units, first access to heroes and wonders...

 

[Nero's fire]

Not to mention the holy city. Let alone the fact that it can net in hundreds or gold per turn later on but even at the start you are much more likely to have your religion spread throughout your region with out disciples.

Also is it a bad thing for people to diversify what they research? I would think that increased diversification and specialization of research between players would be a good thing. As it stands now pretty much the b-lining to religion what most people do.

Perhaps the runner up prize could only be recieved only if you have NO religion in any of your cities. So long as you have access to one form of religion you can spread around the effects, so you might not have gotten the one you liked but you can still work with one of the three. This would also give greater incentive to try and stay in the race for your religion since if your only a few turns behind the person that founds the religion its a very good chance you can finish researching before another type spreads to one of your cities.

 

[DieselBiscuit]

Not much point beelining for religion in MP games with this change... Might aswell go for military while some fool researches a religion for me.

And the difference between that and invading your newly religious neighbour with fresh axemen in current multiplayer would be what? The groove?

 

[Grey Fox]

I dunno, I just like getting Octopus Overlords at turn 33 in multiplayer then laugh at the other players. "Haha, I got it! You didnt!"

 

[DieselBiscuit]

Ok, I know there's not a prevalent mentality for compromises in this thread, but I'll give it a shot anyway: How about you get to build the temple of the religion you researched but got second or later too, but it only gives you the from the specific resource (Gems with Runes, etc.) until you actually get the religion. Additionally, I propose that the chances for spreading a religion to a city with a matching temple is increased.

 

[richieelias]

Havent seen this idea in the thread yet, but if I just wasnt thorough enough and missed it, sorry

How about as soon as a religion tech is discovered by someone, every single civ gets X% of that techs research completed. In other words, if you want to be the first to get it you have to work hard for it, but everyone else can get it at, say, 1/3 the cost once it has been discovered.

Also, if you were 1 turn away when it is discovered, the beakers you wasted (due to it being 1/3 the cost to research now) get put toward the next tech in line, or perhaps just the next tech you choose to research... After all, if you miss a Wonder, you get your production back in gold... Just an idea, and doesnt take away the importance of founding a religion first like everyone getting a free acolyte would.

 

[subanark]

Havent seen this idea in the thread yet, but if I just wasnt thorough enough and missed it, sorry

How about as soon as a religion tech is discovered by someone, every single civ gets X% of that techs research completed. In other words, if you want to be the first to get it you have to work hard for it, but everyone else can get it at, say, 1/3 the cost once it has been discovered.

Also, if you were 1 turn away when it is discovered, the beakers you wasted (due to it being 1/3 the cost to research now) get put toward the next tech in line, or perhaps just the next tech you choose to research... After all, if you miss a Wonder, you get your production back in gold... Just an idea, and doesnt take away the importance of founding a religion first like everyone getting a free acolyte would.

This is sort of what I was stating in the topic post, under idea #1, that everyone dismissed. The difference being that only one player can research a religious tech, and everything the tech provides only requires (aside from the holy city and free diciple) only requires the religion in your city to do.

 

[richieelias]

Yeah, kinda similar, but less of a refund and more of a "the religion has been unlocked" kind of thing. One civ researches leaves, and now leaves costs X% less for everyone regardless of whether you have research points spent on it already.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

That feature is already existent for all technologies, to a smaller degree. Look it up somewhere, there must be an explanation thread for tech costs on CivFanatics.

 

[Gamestation]

It's in the strategy articles section. That fact does not produce as dramatic an effect though. For one thing you actually have to know the person who got the tech.

 

[richieelias]

Exactly. This would be on a much larger scale, and an equal amount world-wide.