Runner up 'prize' for not reasearching a religion first

[Chandrasekhar]

I'm not saying I don't like the idea. Just chiming in that a similar feature already exists. I really don't care one way or the other about this one. I suppose anything that would make a new "runner up" prize more valuable is not desireable, when considering that it's questionable if we want a runner up prize in the first place.

 

[Sureshot]

i like the idea of gettin the religion spread to a random city of yours as a runner up prize because its double edged (negatives include: being behind in the race for heroes/wonders, the holy city person being able to see your cities and gainin gold from each of your converted cities) but atleast gets you the religion you were tryin for.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

And of course the fact that it helps the AI out immensely, as they can be guaranteed a religion, even if the player is able to grab them all... of course, that's double-win territory, but it applies to a lesser extent when the player has even one religion.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

you don't need to found 2 religions to have 2 religions tho (so if you couldnt found more than 1 religion then the system would still support all examples given).

about priests, it seems like they might benefit from having a national limit, higher than higher tiers mind you, like 12, but some set amount so they don't become the mainstay (national limits on every units would be nice to stop the 100's of units some people are having in their games causing slow turns).

I didn't say you needed to found two religions in order to move two alignment slots, I said it was the most practical way.

 

[Mesix]

Maybe it is a dumb question...but how do you move from one alignment to another??? I was playing as the caliban (sp?...vampires) and wanted to change my alignment. I founded the way of the forest and didn't see a way to shift.

The irony behind it is that an evil ally and I were followers of the leaves while three good AI civs were worshiping the octopus overlords. Kinda funny...huh?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

If you convert to the Veil, you become evil. Convert to the Order, and you become good. Evil Civs that convert to Runes become neutral, while other Civs retain their alignment. Same thing with Overlords, except it's the good that become neutral. The Fellowship of Leaves doesn't change your alignment at all (though I think a religion that made your alignment neutral no matter what would be a nice addition).

Edit: Also, what alignment you started out as has no impact on your alignment when switching religions after your first. If the Calabim adopted the Order, then the Overlords, they'd become neutral. If the Khazad adopted the Veil, then chose to drop their state religion, they'd remain Evil.

 

[Mesix]

Thanks for the info. That explains a lot.

 

[RavenXL]

Personally, the existing system has one very strong charm (IMO): if you miss your first choice you gots pressure to get your second choice or at least your fifth choice.

I mostly play multiplayer (players as emperors and comps as nobles). If you miss your first choice, you get no other. And since religion doubles your happiness, you are out of game.

Kael, if you are concerned about the meet-aspect, can anyone code that you can only "see" the religion citys if you see a path to the city?

 

[RavenXL]

Only to put some spice to the "where should the holy city be" question:

My neighbour (a computer) founded a religion (way of the leaves). He had about 8 citys, half of the them running well. The holy city was founded in a 1 citizen city (silver in sight), surrounded by snow. Turns after turns later, one of my soldiers attacked the city. The last defender died and the city crumbled to dust.

I think this city shouldn't have been choosen from the beginning. My holy city is always my capital (emperor and raging barbarians make this decision easy), and it beats all disadvantages of founding my citys late. Godking, holy city and bazaar of mammon (and maybe the spiral tower), and you have no money problems despite high research. OK, you don't NEED the godking/capital bonus, but a city founded to fill the empty space (barbarian defense) and get silver, but no food is crap.

 

[DieselBiscuit]

I mostly play multiplayer (players as emperors and comps as nobles). If you miss your first choice, you get no other. And since religion doubles your happiness, you are out of game.

Kael, if you are concerned about the meet-aspect, can anyone code that you can only "see" the religion citys if you see a path to the city?

I'm writing a mod for FFH that alters religions in quite a couple of ways, and I'm implementing it in a way that you only get the line of sight when you build the wonder associated with the holy city (which in turned can be gained by either building a number of temples or sacrificing a prophet after you gain the religion). I think this should be a bit more balanced, and I'm even considering limiting the line of sight to the players you've actually met.

Have to see about how it works out though, the issue is already so controversial that I never think it will be a part of the real FFH.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I'd say that limiting the line of sight to players you've already met is a reasonable change.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

If you convert to the Veil, you become evil. Convert to the Order, and you become good. Evil Civs that convert to Runes become neutral, while other Civs retain their alignment. Same thing with Overlords, except it's the good that become neutral. The Fellowship of Leaves doesn't change your alignment at all (though I think a religion that made your alignment neutral no matter what would be a nice addition).

Edit: Also, what alignment you started out as has no impact on your alignment when switching religions after your first. If the Calabim adopted the Order, then the Overlords, they'd become neutral. If the Khazad adopted the Veil, then chose to drop their state religion, they'd remain Evil.

That's not how I understand it to work, though I could very well be wrong. When adopeted as a State Religion the

Order: Will make an Evil, Neutral or an Neutral, Good
Runes: Will make an Evil Neutral
Leaves: No effect
OLords: Will make a Good, Neutral
Veil: Will make a Good, Neutral or an Neutral, Evil.

So the Calabim would want to adopt Runes, then Order if they wanted to become Good.

Unless my understanding has been wrong all along. But that's the way I've always done it.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Nope, the Order makes you good automatically, just as the Veil insta-evils you.

Edit: Which is probably why the alignments for religions are named as they are.

Order- Good (as all Civs that have adopted it are good)
Runes- Neutral-Good (as they can be neutral or good)
Leaves- Neutral (which is the anomaly of the group. Man, I want an actively neutral religion)
Overlords- Neutral-Evil
The Veil- Evil

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Nope, the Order makes you good automatically, just as the Veil insta-evils you.

Edit: Which is probably why the alignments for religions are named as they are.

Order- Good (as all Civs that have adopted it are good)
Runes- Neutral-Good (as they can be neutral or good)
Leaves- Neutral (which is the anomaly of the group. Man, I want an actively neutral religion)
Overlords- Neutral-Evil
The Veil- Evil

Well well, that changes things!

(I'll have to try that somegame.)

 

[Grey Fox]

I think its nice that you keep your alignment when you change to leaves. But it would be nice with a religion that forces you to become neutral.

 

[Master_Hugian]

But it would be nice with a religion that forces you to become neutral.

I have to agree with this, although I see a problem with one of the elven leaders (forgotten the name) who start of good. If he (or she) researched leaves, the alignment would convert to neutral, and since this is what elves almost always do, well, elves = neutral.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Oh, I think Leaves should stay weak-neutral as it is. I propose another religion, maybe Magocratic or something, that makes all its adopters neutral. Then again, since the Veil already focuses on magic, perhaps another theme would be better.

 

[Sureshot]

maybe a shadow religion, like how the sidar are. i doubt you can be considered good if you worship shadows, but theres nothing fundamentally evil about them either.

 

[BCalchet]

Hmm... the only idea for a forcefully neutral religion I can come up with would be something inspired by eastern faiths, using yin-yang or similar symbolism to carry the "balance between light and darkness" point across.
Warrior-monks with superior strength but inferior spellcasting, an unlocked 'Inner Eye' promotion for superior archery, temples granting some experience... I imagine something like that could work.

 

[Mesix]

Hmm... the only idea for a forcefully neutral religion I can come up with would be something inspired by eastern faiths, using yin-yang or similar symbolism to carry the "balance between light and darkness" point across.
Warrior-monks with superior strength but inferior spellcasting, an unlocked 'Inner Eye' promotion for superior archery, temples granting some experience... I imagine something like that could work.

Maybe a free sentry promotion for units .