Rushing the Great Library

Another Deity player weighing in here -

It's not a terrible wonder, in fact it's a very powerful wonder. Aside from ToA, it's difficult to argue that any other pre-medieval wonder catapults you ahead as much as the GL. The problem that higher-level players have with the GL is two-fold:

-First, having the benefits of any wonder are beneficial, but insignificant compared to the value of having other empire priorities in place, such as beating the AI to city locations, having the infrastructure in place to create a dominant (or at least competitive) empire, and being able to defend that empire. GL is competed over so highly that you'd have to postpone all these more important priorities to achieve it. This leads to a lose-lose scenario: if you miss it, you get a laughable compensation of gold and are many turns behind in addressing the more important priorities. If you win it, you will be boosted in several "WANT" categories such as culture, tourism potential and most importantly tech, but behind in several "NEED" categories such as expansion, infrastructure and defensive capability, the last of which is compounded by the fact that you're now a juicier target for the opposition. ToA is easier to get away with since it adds some muster to the most essential element, the ability to defend yourself. As such, different wonders are viable at different difficulty levels as the investment level in these "NEED" categories increases with difficulty level. At cheif-warlord, GL is viable as you'll probably get it and the AI's level of competitiveness allows you to build it first and then address the more important criteria. Since you're at prince level, you're reaching the point where this is no longer the case. At the King-Emperor level, things like Chicken Pizza and Alhambra are still viable because you've already made your 2-3 expansions (4-6 with liberty) and can get away with keeping an army of 2 swords, 2 pikes and 4 Cbows. At Deity, you need to get your expansions out ASAP, and keep some degree of a wall of constantly upgraded units between you and your neighbor and even then bribe them to direct their efforts elsewhere. But even deity players choose to boost their empire with select wonder-based bonuses, just later and less competitive wonders like Porcelain Tower, Nieschwanstein, and Ideological wonders.

-Second, it's a crutch at lower levels. Most deity level players assume that lower level players are inferior but are still developing so they themselves can become deity players. I understand that this is not the case, and that some players enjoy the game at warlord or King or Immortal and have no desire to make the game more complicated. As I've said many times, this is a turn-based strategy game and as such, increasing the difficulty level doesn't make it harder, but rather narrows the choices that are viable in achieving victory earlier, or victory at all.
With this in mind, players who DO treat the difficulty levels as rungs in a ladder to advance in will find less obstacles to their advancement if they don't utilize and become dependent on some of the crutches available in some situations but not in others. Things like playing as Babylon every game, building the Great Library every game, and founding a religion every game can become engraved in a player's "style" and that player will experience incredible frustration when those preferences are no longer options.
 
@yung, Well I also don't build 3 consecutive settlers, but maybe that's why I don't win 100% of my Deity games. If the only criterion is 3 settlers ASAP, then sure, skip the granary. But I also try to have a strong capital, and the granary (in conjunction with spacing out the settlers more) will allow for that to happen. You need the NC to catch up to the AIs in tech, and you need a strong capital for the NC to mean something. A strong cap also gives you a better chance for one of the early wonders (the decisive Petra or the less-contested Oracle).

How do you have the happiness to support that, anyway? Unless you steal like 3 workers, that seems like it would be an impediment.

@Shaka, I think you said a lot of the things that I was trying to say. Thanks for that. My only addendum would be that the things you list as NEEDs are not as NEEDed at Prince as they are at Deity. Even if you're slow to expand, even if you have little defense, the AI can be beat. Those things that you listed as WANTs (namely, a tech lead that snowballs) are sufficient. That's why the GL is a viable strategy at Prince. Is it the optimal strategy? Frankly, I don't even know what that means... a win is the optimal strategy. Will it help you prepare for "climbing the ladder" in the difficulty settings? No, we all agree on that.
 
Is it the optimal strategy? Frankly, I don't even know what that means... a win is the optimal strategy.
I think the forum's majority decision is that optimal strategy is that which enables achieving a victory condition on the earliest turn possible. I must note that while this seems to be the majority view, it is far from consensus as someone once vehemently countered one of my points with, "well, maybe not everyone cares about finishing one turn earlier [pissed] As such, I would imagine that building GL would be optimal at lower levels, though as we keep repeating ourselves, may stunt the growth of players planning on progressing.
 
I think the forum's majority decision is that optimal strategy is that which enables achieving a victory condition on the earliest turn possible. I must note that while this seems to be the majority view, it is far from consensus as someone once vehemently countered one of my points with, "well, maybe not everyone cares about finishing one turn earlier [pissed] As such, I would imagine that building GL would be optimal at lower levels, though as we keep repeating ourselves, may stunt the growth of players planning on progressing.

I don't know that it's a majority. I'm not sure that the majority even use that term. Of those that do talk about an "optimal strategy" they probably are using the definition you just described.

Other perfectly reasonable ways to use the term "optimal strategy" could be the strategy that produces:
1. Highest possible game-score, which at lower difficulties might mean wonder-whoring, even if the wonder does not really give earlier victory times.
2. Increased probability of securing victory, whether said victory arrives earlier or later.
3. The most fun for the player while still securing victory.
4. The destruction of Hiawatha, just because he ticked you off earlier in the game, and destroying him is more important to you than building some silly little spaceship engine.
5. The opportunity to build a giant death robot, just because you haven't gotten to play with it yet.

For what it's worth, I have never cared one iota about what turn my victory came in. I probably care most about #3, then #5 (not specifically about giant death robots, but I might say "I haven't had a Deity victory yet while finishing the Exploration tree... let's see if I can do that in this game."), then #2.
 
@yung, Well I also don't build 3 consecutive settlers, but maybe that's why I don't win 100% of my Deity games. If the only criterion is 3 settlers ASAP, then sure, skip the granary. But I also try to have a strong capital, and the granary (in conjunction with spacing out the settlers more) will allow for that to happen. You need the NC to catch up to the AIs in tech, and you need a strong capital for the NC to mean something. A strong cap also gives you a better chance for one of the early wonders (the decisive Petra or the less-contested Oracle).

How do you have the happiness to support that, anyway? Unless you steal like 3 workers, that seems like it would be an impediment.

Well, I get two Workers pretty much every single game (AI and CS) and in many cases I can steal two Workers from the same AI, two Workers from different AIs or get a Worker from a Barbarian camp. But usually it is not more than two.

Being completely honest even one Worker should be enough, considering that that one Worker will have almost 50 turns (if you steal him from a CS around T20, very realistic in my opinion) to improve three luxuries.

Also lately my first build in newly settled cities is a Worker, so that Worker will often be out before the fourth city is settled.

Sometimes I will rushbuy additional Workers. Sometimes I will forego Growth for a Worker, especially with things like Water Mills, since obviously Workers improve your Growth indirectly, too.

My Worker building is quite excessive, I will admit that, but queuing up three Settlers is a standard tactic on Deity.

I just really like Workers, man :lol:
 
I'm not sure if I'm the odd one out here. But I commonly don't have much trouble getting Stonehenge, or GL, or both, at King (5) difficulty. If I am smart with my research I can often research deep into the tree with Philosophy + Trapping and get Civil Service as my free tech. Boosting me straight into the Classical and Medieval Era's in the early game. Having +4 :c5food: +1 :c5gold: tiles in the early game is a massive advantage. Though, if I went for Calendar instead of Trapping, that usually means I will get the culture tech, with Monasteries, instead.

I'm still playing vanilla, not BNW, so I don't know if or how that changes things. I can't particularly remember my BO either. I don't think it was anything special. I went Tradition, and built 1 Scout + Monument + Granary (though not sure if it was that order). Then did 1 settler before Stonehenge. After that GL was very quick. Will check replay. Getting Monument first and going into Tradition gives good growth and much faster policy acquisition. I think my Policy Acquisition Rate (PAR) was initially 5 turns, and dropped down to 10 turns for the next few policies. Never went higher than 15.
 
I don't know that it's a majority. I'm not sure that the majority even use that term. Of those that do talk about an "optimal strategy" they probably are using the definition you just described.

Other perfectly reasonable ways to use the term "optimal strategy" could be the strategy that produces:
1. Highest possible game-score, which at lower difficulties might mean wonder-whoring, even if the wonder does not really give earlier victory times.
2. Increased probability of securing victory, whether said victory arrives earlier or later.
3. The most fun for the player while still securing victory.
4. The destruction of Hiawatha, just because he ticked you off earlier in the game, and destroying him is more important to you than building some silly little spaceship engine.
5. The opportunity to build a giant death robot, just because you haven't gotten to play with it yet.

For what it's worth, I have never cared one iota about what turn my victory came in. I probably care most about #3, then #5 (not specifically about giant death robots, but I might say "I haven't had a Deity victory yet while finishing the Exploration tree... let's see if I can do that in this game."), then #2.
I'll go with #3. Although I would submit an addendum to the list related to #4, and that's achieving victory while getting revenge on the neighbor who DoWed you early game and screwing up your plans, and being able to nuke him enough that every tile has fallout and all his cities are size 1.

Regarding #1, I feel the score system of the game is so broken that I've come to ignore it completely (which, BTW, is unusual for me; in the past I've always aimed at getting the highest scores in pretty much every other game.) Some of, what I feel, are my most impressive games have the lowest scores, while some of the games that I've really trolled my way to victory are high.
 
Other perfectly reasonable ways to use the term "optimal strategy" could be the strategy that produces...
I love the idea behind your list!

I am not sure about the term “optimal”, but I think when people are talking about things like the GL that is more about not making choices that are poor. Planting an academy on a lux is poor. Rushing the GL is poor. This difference is that the first is always quite bad, where as the second might only be “sub optimal” (depending on difficulty level and other things).

Well, I get two Workers pretty much every single game (AI and CS) and in many cases I can steal two Workers from the same AI, two Workers from different AIs or get a Worker from a Barbarian camp.
This is a good example. Stealing workers from CS is “optimal”. Once I figured out the mechanics, I stopped doing it, even after I noticed what a difference it made to my early games. Yes, my games suffer, but it felt like an exploit. “Optimal” is also about enjoying the game! I could not enjoy civ as much if I was not able to win (some of the time) at Deity. So I have had to pay attention to avoiding things that are poor.

Bonus: About 1 in 10 games now, I late-game DOW a CS that captured another CS!

Stealing workers from AI is very much fair game!
 
It is quite the opposite, stealing from CS is a lot less exploiting than stealing from AI. You can only do it with one CS and you realistically can get 2 useful workers out of it over a span of turns.
You can steal from the AI at turn 0 nulling some of the advantages the AI gets, and effectivley lowering your difficuly level. And the AI will forgive you so easy. Advance to clasical era and the warmonger hate is gone. You might even get a dof from an AI from who you just robbed settlers and workers. You end up never building any worker not to mention leaving a crippled AI.
 
Stop stealing Workers and the game changes significantly. Liberty suddenly becomes on par with Tradition, because of the free Worker and its extra speed. And if you choose Liberty and pick up the free Worker first, then the Great Library gets more interesting as well, because you'd want those Settlers to be cheap and that takes a while.
 
Stop stealing Workers and the game changes significantly. Liberty suddenly becomes on par with Tradition, because of the free Worker and its extra speed. And if you choose Liberty and pick up the free Worker first, then the Great Library gets more interesting as well, because you'd want those Settlers to be cheap and that takes a while.

It's faster to steal workers than to make them.

Surely the fastest finish times would include not making your own workers, correct?
 
My Worker building is quite excessive, I will admit that, but queuing up three Settlers is a standard tactic on Deity.

Haha. I do steal workers (usually two as well) but I still have happiness problems. Oftentimes the hard part is finding a defensible expansion with different luxury types, since maps usually spawn the same luxury 6 times near you. Later on, you can trade them for different luxuries, but in the early game, I can only trade them for gold (which is good too, but it doesn't help me expand).

Well as I said, I eschew the "this is the optimal way so do it always" philosophy but since I've never done this so-called "standard tactic on Deity" I might as well try three consecutive settlers in my next game!

Although I would submit an addendum to the list related to #4, and that's achieving victory while getting revenge on the neighbor who DoWed you early game and screwing up your plans, and being able to nuke him enough that every tile has fallout and all his cities are size 1.

This definitely made me LOL. I might play a game back on Prince just to see if that's as fun as it sounds!

I love the idea behind your list!

I am not sure about the term “optimal”, but I think when people are talking about things like the GL that is more about not making choices that are poor. Planting an academy on a lux is poor. Rushing the GL is poor. This difference is that the first is always quite bad, where as the second might only be “sub optimal” (depending on difficulty level and other things).

Thanks, and I think you make a very good point. I agree that the academy on a lux is objectively bad, which is different from how rushing the Great Library is bad. I think you could put the difference another way: Planting an academy on a lux is poor because I can't think of a single circumstance or an objective one might have (from my list, or any other list) where an academy on a lux helps to obtain that objective. On the other hand, the Great Library is poor in very many circumstances, but it's not that hard to imagine a different circumstance where it's useful or someone having an objective that the Great Library helps to fulfill.
 
Sometimes it's fun to put the game on a lower difficulty so you can build all the things you'd ignore on higher levels. Sometimes it's fun to get into the role-playing aspect of the game regardless of what the strongest play is. It's a game, play it your way. The thing that's weird about this question is that it's trying to make a weak play work while increasing the difficulty level. IMHO if that's what you want to do the answer is to drop the difficulty until you can have fun with the GL. If you want to raise the difficulty imho, the best thing to do is improve your fundamental skills, especially in the early game. If someone is bound and determined to make the GL work at higher difficulty levels that's fair play, and best of luck, but it's hard to give advice on. It's not something most people think about.
 
Sometimes it's fun to put the game on a lower difficulty so you can build all the things you'd ignore on higher levels.
This is so true and something that Deity players often overlook. Admittedly, you're kind of catching me in the act; it's been at least a dozen games since I played with any sense of role-playing, it's all been about "how to solve this Rubic's Cube in the fewest moves possible."

I think I'll crank it down to immortal or emperor, play Mongolia with 7 China civs around me, and see how history would play out if the Mongolians built the Great Wall... maybe King...
 
If Immortal and Deity lead to such constrictive gameplay styles - wont that lead to a mal-adapted play-style in multi-player games? I know I'm coming at this from an RTS perspective. But, the first thing you do when transitioning from AI to multi-player, in an RTS, is forgetting everything you learnt vs. AI.

Human players are unpredictable, emotional, and they know the game as well as you do, and they don't rely on cheats to even the score. Playing vs. a human is a totally different proposition, because, you're playing a mind game. It's all well and good to use a cheating AI to test an optimal BO. But when that BO needs to account for those cheating characteristics (which would not be present in an actual multiplayer match) is that BO still relevant?

Games vs. Cheating AI usually just lead to 'turtling' play and exploits which target the AI's deficiencies, while negating their huge economic advantages - or perhaps tapping into those windfalls to create benefits which would not exist in a normal game. All this goes out the window when you face a human on level footing with equal problem solving capabilities. Maybe the GL is more useful there?
 
If Immortal and Deity lead to such constrictive gameplay styles - wont that lead to a mal-adapted play-style in multi-player games? I know I'm coming at this from an RTS perspective. But, the first thing you do when transitioning from AI to multi-player, in an RTS, is forgetting everything you learnt vs. AI.

Human players are unpredictable, emotional, and they know the game as well as you do, and they don't rely on cheats to even the score. Playing vs. a human is a totally different proposition, because, you're playing a mind game.

Games vs. Cheating AI usually just lead to 'turtling' play and exploits which target the AI's deficiencies, while negating their huge economic advantages - or perhaps tapping into those windfalls to create benefits which would not exist in a normal game. All this goes out the window when you face a human on level footing with equal problem solving capabilities. Maybe the GL is more useful there?

The player who builds the Great Library in MP is almost never the player who wins the game in my experience.
 
This is so true and something that Deity players often overlook. Admittedly, you're kind of catching me in the act; it's been at least a dozen games since I played with any sense of role-playing, it's all been about "how to solve this Rubic's Cube in the fewest moves possible."

I think I'll crank it down to immortal or emperor, play Mongolia with 7 China civs around me, and see how history would play out if the Mongolians built the Great Wall... maybe King...

I'm legitimately an immortal player, although I do have wins on deity. I'm always trying to improve my game, but sometimes it's fun to drop the difficulty and treat it like a sand box. This thread seems to be in limbo between the two attitudes though.
 
The player who builds the Great Library in MP is almost never the player who wins the game in my experience.

well maybe its because theres always a player who starts to build it too early.
i wonder when its the best time frame for the GL, given its not contested?
civil service? printing press? nanotechnology? ;)
 
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