Russia - the most overnerfed civ in the game! Should it be improved?

[0R4NG3]

You have used to the old fashioned cossacs too much, which were way to overpowered. That's way you miss them so badly now. Probably you are russian too, so it's a question of your national pride, which don't allow you to see things objectively.
Cossacks are fine as they are now. If you beline to it, they will conquer the world for you very quickly, as they did for me in my last emperor game.

And lastly if you are not happy with Russia, play other civ or change it in the xml file, and .................................... have a candy

Obviously you are too lazy to read the whole post, let alone the whole thread. I'll make it easier for you by trying to summarize some of the main points that were repeated in this thread over and over, starting with the one that is currently discussed:
1. Pikemen present a serious threat to cavalry/cossacks, at the same time they are absolutely useless against riflemen.
2. Cossacks come 2 techs later than Riflemen.
3. It is possible to have city raider Riflemen, which are much more effective than Cossacks at city taking.
4. Cossacks don't upgrade into anything useful for ages, unlike Riflemen who upgrade into infantry.
5. As a consequence of the first 4 points it is much more efficient to use Riflemen, which essentially means that the Russian UU is hardly ever used.
6. The Russian UB comes very late (the UB is not bad), which means that in majority of games neither UU nor UB are used, making Russia rather flavorless.

As for my personal opinion: I am not used to the old fashioned cossacks, since A: they were way too powerful and I didn't actually like using them 'cause it felt like cheating, B: I haven't played vanilla eversince Warlords came out, so if there's anything I'm used to it's the Warlord's Cossacks. In fact I would be happy if they would make Cavalry independant of Riflery as it was in Warlords, without changing Cossacks; unfortunately though it is not possible because of Cuirassiers.

Lastly I think you should read the whole post and think about it for a bit before answering and accusing of nationalism. If I complain about Sumeria is it because of Sumerian national pride?!?! Yeah right...

Tbh, it doesn shock me at all ... Ever watched how AI Catherine was playing ? Spamming cities asap ... She's like Zara Yacoub.
So making her Imp instead of Fin is basically a way to help the AI in its way of playing, since spamming settlers will cost less, helping for a better start ... I better start watching at her if she's my direct neighbour now

Also as a player, I value Imperialist trait over Financial, I just love REXing. So again, to me it's far from being a nerf ... in fact it even should push me to play her more often.

Hmm, you say it should push you to play Catherine more often, but did it? I know that it made alot of people NOT to play as Catherine. The new Dutch leader is Cre/Fin and he is very popular nowadays. But I agree that it is not a big nerf considering that Stalin was added with his Agg/Ind, which is pretty good.

 

[0R4NG3]

Ways to improve Cossacks (they are not all as good as each other, so some can be used in conjunction):

1. 15 str, +50 vs mounted, +50% against melee. The +50% against melee would apply to Cavalry as well.

2. 16 str or 17 str or18 str +50 vs mounted, or/and get rid of Infantry.

3. Attach Cossacks to Military Science instead of Riflery.

4. Make helicopters come earlier, maybe even get rid of Anti-Tank for this.

5. Make flanking effect catapults and trebuchets.


Ways to improve the Research Institute:

1. Make it come with Radio, it wouldn't be much sooner than superconductors, just a more preferred teching route.

 

[onedreamer]

Pointless point...right. How is it pointless if I can get riflemen 2 techs before Cossacks if I beeline? I think this is pretty much indisputable. After I get riflemen I will rush my nearest neighbour and beeline to assembly line in the process, so by the time he gets Grenadiers I will have Infantry.
The problem is that Cavalry doesn't require helicopters, what it does require is riflemen, so comparing helicopters and rifles is pointless.
Anyway what I'm trying to say is that it is more efficient to use riflemen than cavalry, which makes cossacks pretty unexciting. Giving cossacks +1 str or making them independant of riflery would make them exciting enough for me.

Well... LOL. I explained quite extensively why it is pointless. It is because if you beeline Rifleman, you will face Grenadiers with Riflemen and Knights, not quite a good option to rush your neighbour don't you think ? I'd rather picture your neighbour rushing your riflemen with his grenadiers. That's what I would do. I would have Grenadiers BEFORE you would even have Riflemen, let alone Infantry...

 

[onedreamer]

If you want to go for conquest however, Riflemen are much more interesting than Cuirassiers because Cuirassiers have pretty large problems to beat Pikemen whereas a Rifleman (especially if some are promoted with City Raider) doesn't have problems to beat anything else except other Riflemen or sometimes Oromos.

Beelining to Riflemen is a bit more costly but it's definitely worth it in my opinion.

Just a question about my argument as nobody seemed to react on it: Did anybody actually try using city-raider-promoted Riflemen (well level two or three)? They beat anything inside a city easily really, without the need to bombard before attacking.
Besides, do Cuirassiers ignore walls?

If you want to go for a conquest Grenadiers are much better than Riflemen. I was mentioning Cuirassiers as a counter for Grenadiers in defense, I even said it. The fact that you beeline a tech doesn't mean that the AI will stagnate or not attack you while you do it. What will you do if, while beelining Rifling the AI attacks you ? The AI will do it with Grenadiers (not Riflemen, believe me), what will you do to counter it ? Even when you finish Rifling you won't have a valid counter. But most importantly, I find it pointless to speak about beelining. It's obvious that if you beeline for some unit that is one step above all others in the tech tree, it will be better than another one down the tech tree that you ignored. I was merely answering his statement that Riflemen come 2 techs before Cavalry. It only happens if you make it happen (beeline), the AI doesn't do it, and if you do it, it's at your own risk. Like I said, it's a possibility and not a matter of fact. Or are you both seriously trying to say that it's the latter ?

To answer your question, I've used city-raider-promoted Grenadiers to attack (promoted macemen), and they're quite strong. Surely better than riflemen.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Obviously you are too lazy to read the whole post, let alone the whole thread. I'll make it easier for you by trying to summarize some of the main points that were repeated in this thread over and over, starting with the one that is currently discussed:
1. Pikemen present a serious threat to cavalry/cossacks, at the same time they are absolutely useless against riflemen.
2. Cossacks come 2 techs later than Riflemen.
3. It is possible to have city raider Riflemen, which are much more effective than Cossacks at city taking.
4. Cossacks don't upgrade into anything useful for ages, unlike Riflemen who upgrade into infantry or even Marines.
5. As a consequence of the first 4 points it is much more efficient to use Riflemen, which essentially means that the Russian UU is hardly ever used.
6. The Russian UB comes very late (the UB is not bad), which means that in majority of games neither UU nor UB are used, making Russia rather flavorless.

1. Grenadiers are a Serious threat to Riflemen, but no problem for Cavalry (who are only threatened by Pikes on a cost basis.. which requires massed Pikes) so Riflemen+Cavalry aren't countered by anything (except Pinch Cossacks)

2. No they come anywhere from 0 - 10 techs later (Divine Right, Civil Service, Nationalism, Aesthetics, Drama, Music, Military Tradition, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Horseback Riding) [if you took the Theology beeline to Paper for Riflemen, that is the soonest you get Cavalry] but if you were like a sensible person and both got Horseback Riding, Civil Service, Literature, and made a Liberalism shot Then you have 3 Techs (Nationalism, Music, Military Tradition) of course then you missed out on Curassiers/West Point. Perhaps if the simply made Military Tradition a cheaper tech you might consider them worthwhile.

Infantry are up to 12 techs away from Riflemen (Divine Right, Code of Laws, Civil Service, Nationalism, Constitution, Education, Economics, Corporation, Engineering, Chemistry, Steam Power, Assembly Line) and most of those aren't Cheap techs like Drama or Horseback Riding. Add on the fact that Cavalry are cheaper and survive 30-60% of the time, and they can Still be annoying to Infantry.

3. Cavalry aren't meant for taking cities... neither are Riflemen for that matter, Cannons are meant for Taking cities.. Riflemen and Cavalry are Stack combat/City Defense/Mop up units

4. Riflemen don't upgrade to Marines.

5 (no longer an answer) Cavalry get 2 free experience points (stables) allowing them to get Pinch easily if they want to fight Riflemen

Finally remember point 3... Cannons are for taking cities (and good v. SOD too) they really only have one counter, and that is Cavalry.. which have a 30% rate of retreat, and with Stables Anyone can give them a 60% chance, so Cavalry are now 'counter cannons' They are Defensive units (which means the Cossak is an Offensive unit.. include in your stack to hurt the enemy Cavalry more)

The Flanking system can probably use a lot of tweaks but overall it made Mounted units really important. (perhaps a Flanking 3 that reduces enemy chance of retreat, a way of eliminating the 'can't flank trebuchets' problem.. let them Flank trebs but at a much lower amount of damage)

 

[0R4NG3]

If you want to go for a conquest Grenadiers are much better than Riflemen. I was mentioning Cuirassiers as a counter for Grenadiers in defense, I even said it. The fact that you beeline a tech doesn't mean that the AI will stagnate or not attack you while you do it. What will you do if, while beelining Rifling the AI attacks you ? The AI will do it with Grenadiers (not Riflemen, believe me), what will you do to counter it ? Even when you finish Rifling you won't have a valid counter. But most importantly, I find it pointless to speak about beelining. It's obvious that if you beeline for some unit that is one step above all others in the tech tree, it will be better than another one down the tech tree that you ignored. I was merely answering his statement that Riflemen come 2 techs before Cavalry. It only happens if you make it happen (beeline), the AI doesn't do it, and if you do it, it's at your own risk. Like I said, it's a possibility and not a matter of fact. Or are you both seriously trying to say that it's the latter ?

To answer your question, I've used city-raider-promoted Grenadiers to attack (promoted macemen), and they're quite strong. Surely better than riflemen.

You can have city-raider Riflemen if you upgrade your macemen, but I don't want to argue about that.

I don't care about the AI and what it beelines for, my point is that if I beeline, with an objective of having a war with superior units, I don't see why I would prefer Cavalry to Riflemen who will do the job just as well and I get them earlier. If you look at it this way it is not pointless to speak about beelining.

So you're saying that the sole role of Cavalry is to protect Riflemen from Grenadiers? woo hoo how very exciting! I'd rather get Grenadiers of my own.

We are talking about different things, I'm talking about beelining and fighting outdated units, you're talking about having a war without a tech lead.

Also depends which speed you play on.

 

[0R4NG3]

1. Grenadiers are a Serious threat to Riflemen, but no problem for Cavalry (who are only threatened by Pikes on a cost basis.. which requires massed Pikes) so Riflemen+Cavalry aren't countered by anything (except Pinch Cossacks)

2. No they come anywhere from 0 - 10 techs later (Divine Right, Civil Service, Nationalism, Aesthetics, Drama, Music, Military Tradition, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Horseback Riding) [if you took the Theology beeline to Paper for Riflemen, that is the soonest you get Cavalry] but if you were like a sensible person and both got Horseback Riding, Civil Service, Literature, and made a Liberalism shot Then you have 3 Techs (Nationalism, Music, Military Tradition) of course then you missed out on Curassiers/West Point. Perhaps if the simply made Military Tradition a cheaper tech you might consider them worthwhile.

Infantry are up to 12 techs away from Riflemen (Divine Right, Code of Laws, Civil Service, Nationalism, Constitution, Education, Economics, Corporation, Engineering, Chemistry, Steam Power, Assembly Line) and most of those aren't Cheap techs like Drama or Horseback Riding. Add on the fact that Cavalry are cheaper and survive 30-60% of the time, and they can Still be annoying to Infantry.

3. Cavalry aren't meant for taking cities... neither are Riflemen for that matter, Cannons are meant for Taking cities.. Riflemen and Cavalry are Stack combat/City Defense/Mop up units

4. Riflemen don't upgrade to Marines.

5 (no longer an answer) Cavalry get 2 free experience points (stables) allowing them to get Pinch easily if they want to fight Riflemen

Finally remember point 3... Cannons are for taking cities (and good v. SOD too) they really only have one counter, and that is Cavalry.. which have a 30% rate of retreat, and with Stables Anyone can give them a 60% chance, so Cavalry are now 'counter cannons' They are Defensive units (which means the Cossak is an Offensive unit.. include in your stack to hurt the enemy Cavalry more)

The Flanking system can probably use a lot of tweaks but overall it made Mounted units really important. (perhaps a Flanking 3 that reduces enemy chance of retreat, a way of eliminating the 'can't flank trebuchets' problem.. let them Flank trebs but at a much lower amount of damage)

Grenadiers are not usually there when you get Riflemen, Pikemen are always there.

Cannons no longer kill units and gain experience more slowly, so they are less efficient at city taking than they used to be.

You're right riflemen don't upgrade to marines. I took it out of the original post.

I agree with you on some of the points though.

Here's another way to improve Cossacks:
Make Flanking effect catapults and trebuchets.
Make Military Tradition cheaper, as you suggested, or get rid of it altogether and move West Point and Cuerassiers to Nationalism.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Grenadiers are not usually there when you get Riflemen, Pikemen are always there.

Cannons no longer kill units and gain experience more slowly, so they are less efficient at city taking than they used to be.

I agree with you on some of the points though.

Here's another way to improve Cossacks:
Make Flanking effect catapults and trebuchets.

and Pikemen aren't always there (you don't need engineering to get Riflemen), and your enemy may have followed a wierd path.

True I would change Flanking so that
HA: Catapults+Trebs (as is)
Knights: Cat+Trebs 50% damage than normal
Currasiers: Cannons Normal, Cat+Trebs 50% dtn
Cavalry: Artillery+Cannons normal, Cats+Trebs 50% dtn
Gunships: Mob.art.+Art Normal, Cannons+Cats+Trebs 50%

A simpler way might be to say Cat+Trebs are take 1/2 flanking damage, but Horse Archers do 2x flanking damage

I wouldn't move Currasiers to Nationalism, they start cutting out the age of the Muskets... I would make it cheaper though.

 

[Cvntpumeler]

Here's another way to improve Cossacks:
Make Flanking effect catapults and trebuchets.
Make Military Tradition cheaper, as you suggested, or get rid of it altogether and move West Point and Cuerassiers to Nationalism.

Thats a GREAT idea. In fact, Cavalry should have that too. Mounted units should flank the units of their era AND previous units. I actually got screwed by that in a recent game because I was playing on Immortal, and I was playing Peter also as a matter of fact.

Shaka brought about 100 assorted cats/trebs/curraisers/maceman/musketmen to fight my ~15 CG I, II, and III riflemen defending a border city that had been contested since the beginning of time. I had a couple of Cossacks in the contested city too, so I attacked his stack with them to knock off a few Curaissers and flank his seige units, but much to my dismay the seige units did not suffer the flanking collateral damage. On the next turn, Shaka hits me with all his full health trebs and weakens my riflemen enough that he almost took the city despite the ridiculous garrison. He took out all of my CG III riflemen, my Medic III rifleman healer man, and left my city with a couple of near-dead CGI riflemen. Although he didnt take that city that turn, he was able to bring reinforcements and be somewhat succesful on my coast line... I don't think he would have killed my CG III riflemen if he hadnt been able to park those Trebs next to my city without the risk of being flanked, i never wanted to downgrade a unit so badly...

 

[Antilogic]

Sorry to revive a dying thread, but I had to chime in on my disappointment that my more modern cavalry units could take care of cannons, no problems, but when the wood rolls out, they are just sheerly inept at causing flanking damage to it.

It just seems odd that you cannot cause damage to more primitive equipment.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Most underpowered unique unit? Wow. Ever played as Monty?

I rarely start with iron even though I play on Noble difficulty. And even if you do have iron, there's no way to KNOW that until you have Ironworking. With the Aztecs, you don't have to cross fingers for a metal.

Most underpowered UU? Try the Cambodian.

 

[Mortius]

Lastly I think you should read the whole post and think about it for a bit before answering and accusing of nationalism. If I complain about Sumeria is it because of Sumerian national pride?!?! Yeah right...

1. Sorry everyone for feeding this dead thread

2. I read whole thread before posting.

3. In every post you repeated the same (not true) informations.
- Pikemen is not a counter to cossacks, nor the cavalry. Someone made a stupid mistake counting pikemen strength and you repeated it in your posts.
It's not 6*2(+100% vs mounted)*1,25(formation)*1,2 (combat I and II)=18
It is 6*2,45(+100% vs mounted + combatI + combat II+ formation)=14,7
Not to mention formation requires 10 exp, which hardly ever happend to pikemen. Usualy pikemen would have at most (combatI+combatII)=13,2
In comparison:
Cossacks and Cavalry with combat and shock promotion, which they can get at the start (stable+barracks) have 15*1,35(combatI + shock)=20,25
20,25 cossack vs 13,2 pikeman is over 95% odds of wining. PIKEMEN ARE NOT COUNTER TO COSSACKS
- Nobody noticed cossacks and cavalry have 2 moves, which is huge advantage over granadiers and riflemen. They are great pillagers, and can take or raze cities far form the front with easy, as they are usualy less defended. Their speed allow - flexibility - to outmanoeuvre slower enemy's stacks - to hit oponents in the less defended place.
- Cossacks have no real counter.
Riflemen have Grenadiers
Grenadiers have Cavalry
Cossacks have ... nothing and counter both enemy Grenadiers and Cavalry, which is huge.
4. Counter promotion to cavalry requires combat II, counter promotion to meele or gunpowder units requires combat I. It's diference of 5 exp. Or to say it the other way, you need twice as much exp.
5. Probably the problem doesn't lie in cossacks, but in the lack of your skill in using them efficiently.

PS: I wrote "national pride", and I am not accusing you of nationalism. National pride is overall a good thing but obviously don't allow you to see the whole problem objectively.


@ kniteowl. Better think twice before posting. How can you treat a unit a counter to other unit, which has over 95% odds of winning the battle. This way I can argue warriors are counter to pretorian rush, because they are over 3 times cheaper.
+100% vs mounted doesn't make pikemen cavalry or cossacks killers, the same way as +100% vs mounted doesn't make spearmen knights killers.

 

[kniteowl]

lol well that's debatable but generally speaking no, Pikes don't counter Cavalry, they Counter ANY and ALL MOUNTED units and Cavalry/Cossacks are under that category.

Also please read "Combat Explained" in the war academy, you've only given the Str of defending units. an Attacking Pike and a Defending Pike have their Strengths calculated differently.

Also note the cost of units, a Cavalry/Cossack cost 120 Hammers, a Pike cost 60 Hammers, therefore I can produce 2 pikes for every cavalry produced and I bet 2 Pikes can beat 1 Cavalry most of the time.

 

[Wodan]

I'm with kniteowl. Pikes are counters vs Cavalry/Cossacks, no doubt about it. I'd say it even more strongly... 2 pikes can beat 1 cavalry almost all of the time.

Wodan

 

[onedreamer]

You can have city-raider Riflemen if you upgrade your macemen, but I don't want to argue about that.

Sure you don't want, since Grenadiers are 50% better at it and come BEFORE.

I don't care about the AI and what it beelines for

Wow, that must be a very good strategy

my point is that if I beeline, with an objective of having a war with superior units, I don't see why I would prefer Cavalry to Riflemen who will do the job just as well and I get them earlier. If you look at it this way it is not pointless to speak about beelining.

I never said it ? I said it's pointless to speak of beelining and saying a unit of a later tech that you beelined for is stronger than an earlier tech. Seems obvious to me. The error you make is saying that it comes before, because it comes before ONLY if you beeline for it. But in strict terms, Military Tradition comes before Rifling, IE it's faster to research, and it's better to research before. There is nothing you can possibly invent to state that Rifling comes before Military Tradition as a matter of fact because it's simply false.

So you're saying that the sole role of Cavalry is to protect Riflemen from Grenadiers? woo hoo how very exciting! I'd rather get Grenadiers of my own.

1) That way you have only a 50% chance of success, Cavalry has a much, much better chance.
2) If you didn't research Military Tradition not only you won't have Cavalry to protect Riflemen from Grenadiers, you won't even have Cuirassiers, and most likely not even Grenadiers since you beelined for Rifling.

 

[Roxlimn]

I think that Firaxis made a good job of stopping the Cavalry beeline thing, and that's all there is to it. These days, it doesn't really pay to beeline much of anything, at the cost of economic tech or vital peripheral wartime tech. Even when you "beeline" Riflemen, a direct Grenadier counter is a viable answer on the other side of tech tree.

For my part, I use Knights more than I did before, and Cuirassers after that. For the most part, I don't see it as a problem, especially against the AI. The AI doesn't mass pikes, and the Shock promotion for anti-Pike duty is available right out the Stable. You can have anything from 3-4 Knights or Cuirassers with the Shock promo and it won't really hurt their capability to take out field units or a Longbow or Maceman on a city attack. Since you get Military Tradition for the Cuirassers, once you get Riflemen, Cavalry (and Cossacks) come as something of a byproduct of Rifling.

By themselves, Cossacks will still kill anything below Rifles, and this is important since you won't always be facing up-to-date units, even when the AI's tech is current. In any case, you won't be taking cities with Riflemen OR Cossacks anyways. You take them with Cannon. Once the Cannons are done, whichever unit attacks really ought to be a moot point. The main purpose I have for Cavalry is really for anti-stack battles and mop up operations, plus the pillage duties.

The real question for whether Cossacks are really worth it is, how often does a Cossack ever come up against a rival mounted unit anyway? Well, if you're in a tight war with near tech parity, the answer is that it happens commonly. The AI builds Knights and Cavalry like nobody's business, and as long as you're building Cavalry anyway, it's actually somewhat useful to have one or two with the Formation promotion, if you can spare it. Knight on Knight and Cavalry on Cavalry battles do happen, though admittedly not with the same frequency as a Praetorian on anything battle, or a Redcoat on Gunpowder battle.

 

[Wodan]

Cannons are later in the tree than either Rifles or Cossacks. Until you have them, you're stuck using spies or trebuchets to take down defenses, and yes, taking the city with Rifles or Cossacks (or whatever).

Wodan

 

[Mortius]

I'm with kniteowl. Pikes are counters vs Cavalry/Cossacks, no doubt about it. I'd say it even more strongly... 2 pikes can beat 1 cavalry almost all of the time.

Wodan

I am with .... someone. Warriors are counters vs Preats, no doubt about it. I'd say it even more strongly ... 3 warriors can beat 1 preat almost all of the time.

What an overwhelming number of objective arguments are involving in our discussion.

 

[Roxlimn]

"Later" is relative. It depends on which line of the tech tree you decided to invest in. Generally speaking, for military purposes, I tend to emphasize the Military Science to Military Tradition part of that tree, partially for the Mounted line but also for the Grenadiers and West Point.

A Grenadier/Cannon army is absolutely doable, and IMO, a stronger play than a Rifling tech. A mainly Rifleman army can be stopped almost dead in its tracks if the enemy somehow manages to get Rifling. A Greandier/Cannon/Cuirasser army is not so vulnerable, and it can defend itself adequately with Pikemen and Longbows for stack defense.

Once you do get the Riflemen, your mounted units upgrade into Cossacks for even more ownage, or for the swing edge against a rival who also uses Cavalry.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

3. In every post you repeated the same (not true) informations.
- Pikemen is not a counter to cossacks, nor the cavalry. Someone made a stupid mistake counting pikemen strength and you repeated it in your posts.
It's not 6*2(+100% vs mounted)*1,25(formation)*1,2 (combat I and II)=18
It is 6*2,45(+100% vs mounted + combatI + combat II+ formation)=14,7
Not to

Incorrect, the correct way to calculate 'combat strength' is

1. get the base strength (6 or 15) in our cases
2. multiply the base strength boosters for each individual case (1.2 in this case for totals of 7.2 and 18

3. ADD all the 'Other effects' from BOTH sides... so a formation Pike v. a shock cavalry would be +100+25-25= +100% to the pike.... assuming the pike isn't defending on any terrain/city and hasn't fortified.

4. Now add the other effects to the one that has more of them (the pike in this case)
so 14.4 pike v. 18 cavalry

Or in the more realistic effect of a Formation Pike v. a Combat 2 Pinch Cavalry

7.2+125% pike v. 18 cavalry
16.2 pike v. 18 cavalry

Pike does not counter Cavalry... 2 Pikes counter Cavalry [of course that ignores Cavalry movement advantage and retreat chances]

Basically 2 Pikes will beat 1 Cavalry if the Cavalry are unescorted and the Cavalry are defending (or if the Pikes are defending fort/city). If the Cavalry are with Muskets, they are protected from Pikes. So as long as they are stacked, they are OK... and they are a defense against Stack killers (cannons)