Russian City Names

[Gaius Octavius]

I started a game yesterday as the Russians and was busy expanding across Siberia when I noticed something about the city names. On a whim, I looked through the old Civ 3 and Civ 2 lists, which confirmed my hunch:


Civ 4 Russian cities

Spoiler :

<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MOSCOW</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_STPETERSBURG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NOVGOROD</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ROSTOV</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_YAROSLAVI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_YEKATERINBURG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_YAKUTSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_VLADIVOSTOK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SMOLENSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ORENBURG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KRASNOYARSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KHABAROVSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BRYANSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TVER</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NOVOSIBIRSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MAGADAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MURMANSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_IRKUSTK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHITA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SAMARA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ARKHANGELSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHELYABINSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TOBOLSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_VOLOGDA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_OMSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ASTRAKHAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KURSK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SARATOV</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TULA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_VLADIMIR</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PERM</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_VORONEZH</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PSKOV</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_STARAYARUSSA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KOSTROMA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NIZHNIYNOVGOROD</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SUZDAL</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MAGNITOGORSK</City>

Civ 3

Spoiler :

Moscow
St. Petersburg
Novgorod
Rostov
Yaroslavl'
Yekaterinburg
Yakutsk
Vladivostok
Smolensk
Orenburg
Krasnoyarsk
Khabarovsk
Bryansk
Tver'
Kazan'
Novosibirsk
Magadan
Murmansk
Irkutsk
Chita
Samara
Arkhangel'sk
Chelyabinsk
Tobol'sk
Vologda
Omsk
Astrakhan'
Kursk
Saratov
Tula
Vladimir
Perm'
Voronezh
Pskov
Staraya Russa
Kostroma
Nizhniy Novgorod
Suzdal'
Magnitogorsk

Civ 2

Spoiler :

Moscow
St. Petersburg
Kiev
Minsk
Smolensk
Odessa
Sevastopol
Tblisi
Sverdlovsk
Yakutsk
Vladivostok
Novgorod
Krasnoyarsk
Riga
Rostov
Astrakhan
Kharkov
Grozny
Dnepropetrovsk
Maikop
Kursk
Kuibyshev
Magnitogorsk
Uralsk
Kazan
Vologda
Murmansk
Vitebsk
Batum
Tiflis
Bryansk
Tula
Kalinin
Yaroslavl
Krasnovodsk

Civ 1 (from CFC info page)

Spoiler :

1. MOSCOW
2. LENINGRAD
3. KIEV
4. MINSK
5. SMOLENSK
6. ODESSA
7. SEVASTOPOL
8. TBLISI
9. SVERDLOVSK
10. YAKUSTSK
11. VLADIVOSTOK
12. NOVOGRAD
13. KRASNOYARSK
14. RIGA
15. ROSTOV
16. ATRAKHAN

The older Civ games include cities from the former USSR (Riga, Minsk, Kiev...) whereas the two most recent ones only seem to have cities from modern-day Russia. My guess is that the designers wanted to get away from Soviet associations as the Cold War grew more distant, which somebody once suggested in reference to the leader choices -- Stalin in Civ 1, Lenin and Catherine in Civ 2, only Catherine in Civ 3, and two non-Soviet leaders in Civ 4. If so, it does seem odd that they left out major cities like Kiev, which was in Russian hands long before the communists took power.

I'm not complaining about this, as it's not a big issue for me, but just thought I'd point it out for discussion.

 

[TheLazyHase]

The older Civ games include cities from the former USSR (Riga, Minsk, Kiev...) whereas the two most recent ones only seem to have cities from modern-day Russia.

IIRC, civ2 were developped while the USSR were still in existence. It may be as simple as that.

 

[Lone Wolf]

If so, it does seem odd that they left out major cities like Kiev, which was in Russian hands long before the communists took power.

It was done to prevent Ukrainian nationalists flooding Firaxis with complaints, I guess.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

IIRC, civ2 were developped while the USSR were still in existence. It may be as simple as that.

In 1995?

It was done to prevent Ukrainian nationalists flooding Firaxis with complaints, I guess.

Yep, that probably has something to do with it. But it wouldn't be as bad as including Polish cities.

 

[Zenon_pt]

The older Civ games include cities from the former USSR (Riga, Minsk, Kiev...) whereas the two most recent ones only seem to have cities from modern-day Russia. My guess is that the designers wanted to get away from Soviet associations as the Cold War grew more distant, which somebody once suggested in reference to the leader choices -- Stalin in Civ 1, Lenin and Catherine in Civ 2, only Catherine in Civ 3, and two non-Soviet leaders in Civ 4. If so, it does seem odd that they left out major cities like Kiev, which was in Russian hands long before the communists took power.

I'm not complaining about this, as it's not a big issue for me, but just thought I'd point it out for discussion.

I still remember, founding Minsk and Kiev, on earlier civ's. I must confese, I miss them. But is like TheLazyHase said, they were developped while the USSR was real.

If you think about it. You never saw Alexandria build by Alexander of the Greeks. But in Real History, he was the found of it (and other 22 Alexandria's along Asia).

 

[Willem]

But is like TheLazyHase said, they were developped while the USSR was real.

Gaius Octavius is right, I just looked it up on the Wiki. Civ 2 was released for PC in 1996, the USSR ceased to be in 1991. Though perhaps the Russian Federation hadn't gotten around to changing all the old Soviet names yet.

 

[KeloGBites]

They were changed almost over-night. And the cities he is referencing weren't part of Russia after 1991. Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia all seceded from the USSR with Ukraine making Kiev it's capital.

 

[bestsss]

...and
Riga is the capital of Latvia.
Tbilisi - Georgian capital.

They have never been 'Russian'. Civ1 name list is composed from USSR bigger cities.

 

[KeloGBites]

Hey hey..those were Russian pre-communist era. After all, everything that the USSR was..is just the Russian Empire under a different name with new ideologies and leaders.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Hey hey..those were Russian pre-communist era. After all, everything that the USSR was..is just the Russian Empire under a different name with new ideologies and leaders.

Even so, including the names of cities that historically, as well as at this time, belong to Latvia, Georgia, Belarus or Ukraine would be offensive to everyone except Russian chauvinists. Try to imagine the reaction if the list of English cities included Dublin, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Calais.

 

[Willem]

Try to imagine the reaction if the list of English cities included Dublin, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Calais.

What about New York or Boston?

 

[HappyFunPal]

In Civ game, you play Stalin,

In Soviet Russia, Stalin plays you!

ha ha ha

 

[AfterShafter]

If you think about it. You never saw Alexandria build by Alexander of the Greeks. But in Real History, he was the found of it (and other 22 Alexandria's along Asia).

Actually...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33453098

Great foresight (or hindsight) Firaxis

 

[Gaius Octavius]

...and
Riga is the capital of Latvia.
Tbilisi - Georgian capital.

They have never been 'Russian'. Civ1 name list is composed from USSR bigger cities.

I understand that Russia clearly is not the same as the USSR in strict territorial or political terms, since it was one of over a dozen USSR member states, sort of like what New York or California would be to the USA. There was even some controversy in 1991 after the breakup iirc, over whether Russia should be allowed to keep its seat on the UN Security Council, since that officially belonged to the USSR and not Russia.

But that's exactly why I don't understand the exclusion of certain cities, since even if one argues that the USSR does not reflect the 'true' Russia, and hence, that we shouldn't draw the names exclusively from it, that still doesn't account for those cities that were held in the time of the czars. The Russian Empire covered quite a bit of land at its peak:

Basically, what I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with the current list, but it would have been nice if they had thrown in a few of the more prominent cities that are outside of modern Russia, like Kiev. Just makes the game more flavorful and interesting from a role-playing perspective.

Even so, including the names of cities that historically, as well as at this time, belong to Latvia, Georgia, Belarus or Ukraine would be offensive to everyone except Russian chauvinists. Try to imagine the reaction if the list of English cities included Dublin, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Calais.

Funny you should mention that, since in Civ 2 some of those cities were in the Celtic list. Cardiff was even the capital, I believe. Yet The Mumbles, in Wales, was not a Celtic city in Civ 2 (though Swansea was) but it has been an English city since Civ 3.

Your assessment about the politics behind the decision is probably correct, though.


In the case of New York and Boston, I think the designers left those out specifically because there is an American civ in the game that would use them. Were there a Ukrainian or Belorussian civ, a similar argument could be made for Kiev and Minsk. Though it is still possible to get an English New York in a roundabout way, if you run through the whole English list and force the game to add "New" as a prefix to the city names.

 

[bestsss]

>>that still doesn't account for those cities that were held in the time of the czars.
They are simply no Russian cities, it'd be the same to claim Paris should be included in the German empire

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Well, Basel and Zurich are Swiss cities, Pisa is Italian, Brussels is Belgian, and Breslau is today Polish, yet they are all part of the HRE city list, because the HRE was a broad, multi-ethnic empire. The same could be said about Lugdunum or Neapolis and Rome, or Macao and Portugal. I guess I just don't see the Russian civ as a single ethnicity either, so I have no problem with cities that were part of the empire but not ethnically Russian being in the city list.

 

[Lone Wolf]

But that's exactly why I don't understand the exclusion of certain cities, since even if one argues that the USSR does not reflect the 'true' Russia, and hence, that we shouldn't draw the names exclusively from it, that still doesn't account for those cities that were held in the time of the czars. The Russian Empire covered quite a bit of land at its peak:

Russian Empire covered the territory of Soviet Union and more, barring East Prussia.
Firaxis' policy was to put city names only from modern borders of represented countries (if said modern borders exist, of course). With the HRE they had more leeway exactly for that reason.

There's a small town called Macau in Brazil. Maybe there's a Macau in Portugal, too? Lagos in Portuguese city list is definitely Lagos in the south of Portugal, not the Nigerian port.

For me, having Minsk or Kiev in Russian city list would enhance the flavour (since they are ancient cities of Kievan Rus'), but having Warsaw or even Tashkent would be too much, since they are conquered cities.

(If Firaxis had added Warsaw to Russian city names, can you imagine what Polish nationalists would have done to that forum?! )

Though it is still possible to get an English New York in a roundabout way, if you run through the whole English list and force the game to add "New" as a prefix to the city name

It's not possible that way - after all the city names for a civ are used, Civ4, unlike Civ3 uses city names from other civs.

 

[Dachs]

Actually...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33453098

Great foresight (or hindsight) Firaxis

...which wasn't called Alexandria...

 

[Junuxx]

Same question comes up for the Netherlands. Maastricht is in the Dutch city list, while it wasn't part of the country for most of its history. On the other hand, Antwerp, Brussels, Ghent and Bruges - today in Belgium - have been important cities for the Dutch Republic in the 16th century, and for the United Netherlands in the 19th.

I can understand some Belgians might be upset about it, but considering the fact that the Dutch civ represents the 16th/17th century Netherlands led by William of Orange, I think Brussels should better be placed in the Dutch city list than in the HRE.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

What about New York or Boston?

Hey, I thought of them but deliberately stayed away from that particular can of worms.