Saturn Embassy

[azzaman333]

Alright I get the felling for the team for everyone speaking up.

So next question. Is everyone of with me not playing the save in 1 hour? Meaning log in, do our work, send the letter, then wait till 22-23 hours on the clock prior to ending turn?

That'd be the best course of action IMO.

 

[Krill]

Saturn just found us

Greetings, SANCTA!

It is a pleasure to meet your team at long last! Our people are overjoyed to hear of our meeting after so many years of waiting.

We would like to propose an initial friendly agreement with you: Open Borders and mutual non-aggression, to at least 1 AD. (Dates can of course be negotiated if you wish!) What are your thoughts?

Also, we notice that there are presently several techs that we are each missing. We would be very interested in negotiating some tech trades with you in the near future, providing you are open and willing.

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn

P.S. You can reach us at saturn.mtdg (AT) gmail.com or via PM. Please let us know where you would prefer to receive your diplomacy.

 

[Krill]

Sorry if I stepped on your toes G_W, but I just sent your letter as you typed it out to Saturns gmail addy.

 

[Krill]

OK, I had a long and productive chat with LP...Sorry G_W if I stepped outside by authority, but considering that we do not want to pause the game, I thought it prudent to try and hammer out a deal asap; I think the results may speak for themselves

I did give away alot of infomation; it was a gamble, but if this game is already a 4v1 then the infomation is useless, and being open turned out to be quite good IMO.

Spoiler :

Lord Parkin says: (11:58):
hi
interesting situation
Krill says: (11:58):
hi mate
Lord Parkin says: (11:58):
how long have you guys known that Kaz/Cav have been allied against you?
just curious
you were up the top of the score chart for quite a while there
Lord Parkin says: (11:59):
we kind of expected to find you way out in the tech lead when we found you
Krill says: (12:00):
Well, score's an interesting. We're creative, so we got a lot of land points that are completely irrelevent, and we orracled MC
Lord Parkin says: (12:00):
ah yeah, of course
for a while there we were fearful that there was a Kaz/Cav/SANCTA alliance, and that MS and Saturn were completely screwed
Krill says: (12:01):
We've known that Cav and Kaz were in an alliance since befrore we met them. Around t50 at teh absolute latest they had an alliance.
Cav were going to oracle fuedalism, while Kaz got alphabet
Krill says: (12:02):
Then Kaz met us, refused to trade for anything apart from MC off us...
Cav met us, and offered us alphabet for MC...
Krill says: (12:03):
At the same time Kaz refused to trade with us for MC after we rebuffed them the first time...
Krill says: (12:04):
Just wondering...and I'll found out when one of our guys logs into the game, but do you guys have alphabet?
Lord Parkin says: (12:04):
yeah
we got it from Kaz a few turns ago
Lord Parkin says: (12:05):
they were suddenly very eager to trade with us
Krill says: (12:05):
Cool.
What happened was they were trying to sell alpha to us as well
Lord Parkin says: (12:05):
maybe they knew we'd meet you soon or something...
Krill says: (12:05):
yeah
jsut wondering, but did you meet us at teh chariot or the galley?
Lord Parkin says: (12:06):
Galley
Krill says: (12:06):
are cool
Lord Parkin says: (12:06):
where's the Chariot?
Krill says: (12:06):
*ah
um
on a hill, 2 tiles east of a desert hill
Lord Parkin says: (12:06):
ah, ok
our Immortal just found Cav's territory this turn, actually... they're alarmingly close to us, only a stone's throw
we thought we'd find MS down there, but no...
Lord Parkin says: (12:07):
anyway, that's just random news
Krill says: (12:07):
Yeah, the map seems a little weird
we don;t know where MS are either
Lord Parkin says: (12:07):
unfortunately we're tied into working with Kaz at least for a little bit
we're working on Feudalism, and have promised it to them in return for the techs they've sent us
no biggie though, just a tech deal
no alliance
Krill says: (12:07):
cool
Krill says: (12:08):
we thought you would be
Lord Parkin says: (12:08):
wish we'd known about the Cav-MS thing earlier
would have thought more about Feudalism
and actually, are you sure about MS?
they didn't seem that closely tied to Cav when we talked to them
mind you, that team hardly EVER seems to talk
Krill says: (12:09):
Well, we sent them more than half a dozen emails
Lord Parkin says: (12:09):
they seem to have some terrible communications issues
Krill says: (12:09):
they managed, more than 1 months after meeting us, to send us an email that ignored all of our previous talking points and commited to nothing.
So, yeah
Krill says: (12:10):
you may be right and they don;t want to work with us, but not work with the others...
Lord Parkin says: (12:10):
I did chat "off the record" with DaveShack when we were trying to talk with MS, and he said there was a serious lack of activity on his team which was the main problem
the few times they've responded to us, they've been fairly friendly and agreeable
might be just the percieved power difference, I guess
Lord Parkin says: (12:11):
we're the one team that's lower than them on the scoreboard, so they don't feel threatened or something
Krill says: (12:11):
Ah, that definately helps We'll definately have to take that into account...
Lord Parkin says: (12:12):
I think if MS could be brought on our side that'd be a fairer 3-2 than the current one
Krill says: (12:12):
definately
Lord Parkin says: (12:12):
then again, I'm dubious about whether it'd be worth it
that team just sucks at communicating...
Lord Parkin says: (12:13):
we've been trying to arrange a tech trade with them for weeks, and still nothing...
from past multiplayer experience, I've found you really need allies that will read and respond to messages promptly
otherwise they're next to useless
but I may be speaking too soon
Krill says: (12:14):
yeah...I think we're on the same page there
Lord Parkin says: (12:14):
then again, we've known MS for months, and they've always been this way...
yep
Krill says: (12:14):
Well, may we talk about tech for the moment?
Lord Parkin says: (12:15):
we'd actually become rather frustrated and bored with the game, because Kaz/Cav were always rather arrogant and abrupt with us, and MS were simply not there. So it was a bit lonely out there... glad to have met you guys
sure thing
Krill says: (12:15):
well, basically, you can see teh techs we have.
What you can't see is that we have 300 gold saved atm
Krill says: (12:16):
We weren't sure what you guys were teching, so we saved gold starting around t75
Krill says: (12:17):
You've already seen the offer of an alliance. That's going to stand even if you have to research fued first.
Lord Parkin says: (12:19):
okay
Krill says: (12:19):
If you guys are willing to trade us alphabet, CoL, archery, we're able to get maths and masonry by t93, currency by t99-t100. We'd be willing to trade you these, and Metal Casting (so long as you could agree to not trade them to Kaz/Cav/(and MS on the offchance...).
Lord Parkin says: (12:20):
We'll be getting Maths from Kaz soon...
part of our deal
so you don't have to put any beakers in to that
(or have you already?)
Krill says: (12:20):
nah, we haven't started yet.
Krill says: (12:21):
as said, we'd been waiting to meet you
and it's been a lonely few months
Lord Parkin says: (12:22):
I don't see that we'd have any problem with trading you any techs - I'd have to talk it over with the team though, obviously. I think the only point that's been raised so far is that maybe we should make gifts instead of trades - just to reduce traceability for the moment. It'll probably become apparent soon enough that we're helping each other out, but it'd be nice to try to keep cordial
relations with the other nations as long as we can.
ah, right
Lord Parkin says: (12:23):
what's taken so long, by the way?
roughly what direction / how far are you from us?
Krill says: (12:24):
We're to the SE of our galley. you? Basically we took a wrong turning about 40 turns ago, went into a cul de sac and then the warrior died. Then we just thought it'd be quicker to drop a chariot off with a galley instead of walking an axe over there around so many mountains
Lord Parkin says: (12:24):
SW of your Galley
Lord Parkin says: (12:25):
ah, okay... so just bad luck really
ah well, it happens
Krill says: (12:25):
yeah.
Lord Parkin says: (12:26):
we never bothered with a work boat / galley, and all our land-based explorers died due to animal attacks...
we were fairly unlucky there
Lord Parkin says: (12:27):
probably should have gone with the work boat in retrospect, but never mind
do you know where any of the other teams are located relative to one another?
Krill says: (12:27):
Kaz are south of us
Lord Parkin says: (12:27):
we can only see Cav, to our SW
Krill says: (12:27):
We found Cav, along way to our west of us
Lord Parkin says: (12:28):
ah, okay
I wonder where MS are... I guess either down south or way to the west
they met us from the west
via work boat
Krill says: (12:29):
They met us with a warrior, woody 2 promoted near our lands
Lord Parkin says: (12:30):
ok
Krill says: (12:53):
One point that I think probably should be made though. We're willing to research Currency...but we do want CoL in the near future. I know it seems a little greedy to ask this, as we'd be asking for more upfront, but if you were, hpyothetically speaking, to send CoL as well as alpha to us, we'd have no reason not to research currency to then return to you.
Krill says: (12:54):
obviously we'd be willing to send MC to you as well.
Lord Parkin says: (12:55):
I don't think there will be any problems with that
Lord Parkin says: (12:56):
assuming that we're entering into a full alliance, we'll probably be happy to agree to trade whenever required, without much regard for the beaker costs. That's the way I find the best alliances work, anyway - that way no-one gets uptight about who owes what.
Krill says: (12:56):
yeah, I do agree with that. It's just you never quite know what's going to happen when you meet a new team...we onnly met, what, 2 hours ago?
Lord Parkin says: (12:56):
both parties agree to trade whenever the other requests something, and everyone stays happy
yeah, indeed
Lord Parkin says: (12:57):
I think we've found a fairly mutual desire to help one another though
I guess both of our teams have had the whole "lonely/bored" thing going on due to isolation from the other teams
Lord Parkin says: (12:58):
nice to finally meet a team that's not all guarded and cautious
Krill says: (12:58):
ha, yeah
Lord Parkin says: (12:58):
(or in MS's case, practically non-existent...)
Krill says: (12:59):
lol.
Well, I have to go to lunch now.
Would it be OK with you posting this chat in our respective private fora? I'm ok with it if you are
Lord Parkin says: (12:59):
alright
yeah, that's fine
I'll do that too
almost bedtime here
Lord Parkin says: (13:00):
I guess you're in the US?
or Europe?
Krill says: (13:00):
England
Lord Parkin says: (13:00):
ah, ok
New Zealand here
Krill says: (13:00):
cool.
Anyway, have a good evening then. I look forward to reading your emails in the future and hopefully working with you
Lord Parkin says: (13:01):
yep, indeed. Likewise.
see you later

 

[mostly-harmless]

That's some pretty swift diplomacy, Krill! Well done.

mh

 

[General_W]

I'll read this more carefully when I get a break at work - but my intial reaction is

Great work Krill!
Thanks for jumping on this.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

very nice!!

 

[Dreylin]

Looks promising!

Interesting that they are willing to offer immediate OB even though it would benefit us significantly before them. I definitely think that we should discuss a Galley exchange to ansure they get the benefits too.

e.g. Once our Galley has found their lands and established routes, we gift it to them to sail back. Then they either gift it back to us, or keep it as consideration for the lopsided routes we gain in the meantime.

 

[Krill]

That's some pretty swift diplomacy, Krill! Well done.

mh

I'll read this more carefully when I get a break at work - but my intial reaction is

Great work Krill!
Thanks for jumping on this.

very nice!!

Thanks guys.

Looks promising!

Interesting that they are willing to offer immediate OB even though it would benefit us significantly before them. I definitely think that we should discuss a Galley exchange to ansure they get the benefits too.

e.g. Once our Galley has found their lands and established routes, we gift it to them to sail back. Then they either gift it back to us, or keep it as consideration for the lopsided routes we gain in the meantime.

I agree. Next turn Saturn should found that city, for the two silvers, and if we have OB by then we should be able to immediately gift the galley to Saturn for them to sail back. It should take roughly 7-8 turns to get it to our borders.

While it would be nice to try and sail to the west to find MSand gain trade routes with them (we'll need them by the time we have currency and/or the GLH), I'd be willing to accept that hit. We should let Saturn know the trade off though; they may be about to build a workboat to meet us anyway, in which case as an alliance us getting trade routes with another civ would benefit us both.

 

[Memphus]

don't they need sailing? otherwise that city won't be hooked up to their other ones and therefore we won't get the bonus. (only from that new city)

 

[Krill]

Yes...we do need to send them sailing to get the full amount of trade routes (worth 5 commerce per turn...yum).

Saturn would like to try and keep any alliance hidden; it's a laudable aim, and they also accept it won't work for very long. Well, I seriously doubt any other team is going to think that we aren't going to get along given both our current positions, so the only way to hide an alliance is to make it seem like we are dating instead of about to perform marriage vows...

There are multiple ways to do that, I'm not sure which ones are the best though.

 

[Memphus]

we gift sailing

they gift CoL

we gift MC

they gift Alpha

1 turn apart?

 

[Krill]

Well, Saturn stated they are owed maths in about 10 turns from Kaz; basically we've got nothing to research apart from Currency; maths in 10 turns is OK for us.

So ideally we want alphabet before we end turn on t91. We start research into currency next turn (without the bonus from maths). The turn we finish the lighthouse in IS we finish masonry and overflow into currency.

That would mean that without any other teams researching currency, and without us getting maths, we would get Currency eot t97 (and Masonry in there as well).

I think I favour researching Currency next, if we can get Maths off Saturn as well as alpha and CoL. The commerce from the trade routes will be useful, as a tech it balances out the current tech trades quite well, and LP seemed happy to get asap as well.

Now, that brings up the point of how well can we hide tech trades? And we can only do it on turns when we don't grow and cities or research any techs.

It'd work by us completing (or moving all units, anyway) the turn but not hitting enter. Then Saturn trade the tech and we end turn. The sole increase in points suggests that was when we researched the tech ourselves, and didn't trade for it. This doesn't work for Saturn though, as Kaz knows that they are research fuedalism, so any techs for them must of come from us.


The conclusion I'd draw is that we should probably just be open and tech trade everything, except maybe MC to increase the cost to the other teams. Hiding it isn't really going to work that well.

 

[regoarrarr]

Krill you freaked me out. I know you were being intentionally vague but I was all panicy that something really bad was happening!!!


This looks like great news and I'm all for proceeding

 

[Krill]

Hey, it's the best way to get the posters out of the woodwork

It also got Darrell and Soooo to join the team...rather constructive of me, I'd say

 

[Ronnie1]

Well done Krill! Just got caught up, SWEET!!!!

I think we need to be straight with Saturn about our Wonder Plans also....If we are looking for a long term partner, I believe all the cards need to be on the table!

 

[IamJohn]

Very nice job krill, we started a very good relationship, and more people are always a good thing

 

[General_W]

ok - I'm leaving on vacation tomorrow (bad timing, I know) - so I worked to get this rough draft alliance document ready. Hopefully we can agree on something even before I go!

I won't put this in quote tags for easier editing work for those that want to take a swing at it:

------------------------

The PASS​

Permanent Alliance of Saturn-SANCTA
Draft 1​

An agreement between Saturn (Persia) and SANCTA (Netherlands).
Whereby it is recognized that the thee-way alliance of foreign powers is poised to run away with this game if they are not stopped.

Whereby it is recognized that it is in our mutual self interest to fully cooperate until we are the only two remaining powers in the game.



Article 1: Non-Aggression

It is hereby agreed that we will not attack each other or provide aid, in any form, to anyone fighting any member of the alliance.​

Article 2: Exclusivity

It is hereby agreed that we will not trade or gift technology, offer financial aid or information about alliance plans, or provide military support in any form to non-members of the Alliance.
Exceptions to this can be made only by express mutual agreement.​

Article 3: Defense

It is hereby agreed that if either member of the alliance comes under direct military attack by an enemy power and the other alliance member is NOT under direct (or imminently direct) attack the Alliance member who is not under attack will provide:

• 150 hammers worth of military aid as soon as possible.
• 10 hammers per turn* (accruing each turn till balance is paid off by delivery of a military unit)

* The 10 hammers per turn will scale with the progress of the game (and arrival of more expensive units). When the alliance acquires Gunpowder it shall rise to 15 hammers per turn, and with Rifling or Steel to 20 hammers per turn, and with Assembly Line, Artillery, or Flight to 30 hammers per turn,

This defense provision does NOT apply to offensive wars started by a member of the Alliance for purposes of conquest. (Pre-emptive attacks against an invading force are allowed and still count as defense).

The Hammer-per-turn obligation will last until the Ally under attack successfully captures/razes an enemy city or until the other ally comes under attack themselves, or until 500 hammers have been transferred.​

Article 4: Technology Cooperation

It is hereby agreed that we will cooperate on technology in a generous fashion with eachother.
It is hereby agreed that we will pursue rapid technological advance in good faith – and not attempt to abuse the alliance.
(ie - No member of the Alliance shall stockpile gold at a rate greater than is reasonably necessary for general strategic concerns.)
It is hereby agreed that we will openly and forthrightly share research plans to avoid any duplication of effort and ensure rapid progress.
It is hereby agreed that all technology shall be shared openly, upon request, without regard to beaker value, with eachother.​

Article 5: End of the Alliance

This alliance will end when Saturn and SANCTA are the only two remaining teams in the game, or upon express mutual agreement to terminate the alliance.
It is hereby agreed that the non-aggression (article 1) part of this alliance will remain in-force for a minimum of 10 turns after the last foreign power is eliminated from the game (either by destruction or capitulation).​

------------------------------


Thoughts on that?
Let's get cooking!

 

[azzaman333]

3 looks too specific to me, and doesnt really fit with the rest of the agreement.

 

[General_W]

It's a little specific, I agree, but I think Article 3 is necessary to make Saturn feel secure enough that we're not going to abandon them to be destroyed.

We could make it more vague... but then it would be quite a bit less comforting.
Did you have a suggestion?