Saturn Embassy

[Memphus]

great work team!

Just catching up. Going to check the save now

 

[Krill]

OK, Message sent.

 

[Krill]

Message from Saturn

Yep, we got it (refering to email) - we're happy to accept Sailing. We're just preparing a (positive) response to the larger alliance offer... you should have it later today.

Woot.

On that note, is the rest of the team happy to ask for alphabet now, and research currency at 100%, so long as Saturn can get us maths when Kaz gifts it to them?

Currency is the only tech that we can realistically research; the other one being Civil Service, but that would take up to 20 turns, whereas we can get Currency by t98 at the latest.

 

[Dreylin]

Currency is good.

 

[Memphus]

yes get us Alpha.

want me to ask in game?

also finish masonry next turn correct?

 

[Krill]

Ideally Saturn send alpha this turn, and we start researching currency. We do not finish masonry until t94 to hide GLH/Pyramids for a little longer adn don;t risk anything weird happening to the overflow.

I'll write a quick email to Saturn.

Edit:

I don't want to add more because we're supposed to be getting a reply shortly.

Spoiler :

Namaste Saturn,

Sorry to be brief (0800 here and I'm not a morning person) and for sending another email after hte previous on, and before you can reply, but we needed to get this out before you played hte save.

If you guys are happy with us researching currency next, can you please send alphabet to us this turn so we can start research asap? We'd be looking at an eta of t98 for finishing research.

Krill, Daimyo of Interior, SANCTA
Money, get away,
money, caviar, four star
Money, it's a hit...

 

[mostly-harmless]

Once the alliance is in the dry, we should inform them about our wonder plans to avoid double efforts and irritations.

mh

 

[IamJohn]

Do we want to say something along the lines of, "this is what we're building", or "this is what we're planning on building if you're fine with it"?

 

[Krill]

Message from Saturn:

Greetings SANCTA, and sorry for our delay.

We would be honoured to accept your offer of a larger alliance between our two nations! We have thoroughly discussed committing to a full alliance with you, and think it is the best way to give both of our teams a fighting chance in this game.

A few suggestions we have:

- Full openness regarding all communications with other teams. For example, if one team hints of an upcoming war against someone, we pass that on. If we're looking to secure a tech trade with a third party, we let the other partner know. Basically, we share all information of importance.

- Openness with other information obtained on rival teams. On a related note, we should divide our espionage points such that we can each gather information on one rival team. (For example, we can put all espionage into Cav, and you could put most of yours into Kaz.)

- Free exchange of techs between us, without regard to beaker costs. If one of us requests a tech, the other will provide it instantly. (On the flip side, we should to only ask for what we need from one another. Gifting over too many techs at once may unnecessarily sour relations and future trade opportunities with other nations.)

- Where practical, we agree to help each other out in times of defensive war. (Obviously for the next 50 turns or so we'll still be too isolated from one another to be able to help much in the case of any war declarations.) For offensive wars, we can make a decision at the time whether we want to war together, but neither of us is obliged to join.

- The possibility of MS being included in the alliance should not be completely ruled out, although they'd need to seriously change their team organization (which is unlikely to happen). Of course, we'd need to thoroughly discuss things between ourselves first and come to an agreement before we would ever admit anyone new to the alliance.

- We should probably have some kind of agreement regarding a far future end date for the alliance, just so neither of us is confused. I suggest that the alliance should come up for renegotiation after the defeat of Kazakhstan and Cavaleiros (defeat being when we both agree that they are no longer a threat). Of course, that may never even happen in this game, but I'm just thinking ahead anyway.

Please let us know what you think. We're looking forward to working with you!

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn

P.S. Thanks for Sailing - we've offered Alphabet!

My reply:

Recieved and posted.

Surficed to say we agree with all of your points.

We look forward to working with you as well

SANCTA

Communication
friendship and hope regardless
bright new dawn beckons

 

[Whomp]

No discussion of wonders. Since I'm not much of a civ4 player, are these game or deal breaking type wonders? It would seem to me we need to communicate our intentions so they don't duplicate our build. Are there important wonders they would want to build that we can say we would help them with (through research path)?

 

[Memphus]

Well at this point Saturn can't build any of the 3 wonders.

Collosus needs MC and forge,they have neither so havn't invested, we could argue we should get this.

Pyramids and GLH need masonry which Saurn doesn't have yet either.
So when we get Masonry that is when we tell them we are building those 2.

 

[Krill]

1. Pyramids (game breaking)
2. Collosus (critical importance, maybe game breaking)
3. Great Lighthouse (minor, but still useful to us for various reasons)

And Saturn can't build any atm, nor could they realistically hope to build any of them before us.

I'm still sitting on the fence. I don't mind telling them, and think it would be pretty crappy of us to not tell them at all, but hey, sometimes you get paranoid.

 

[Whomp]

Ok so what is the next "must have" wonder? I'm just thinking in advance so we have something to negotiate with if they balk at us building these. Since they can't build these I think we should let them know and simply explain these were especially important to us considering the potential dogpile that was developing. Do they benefit in any way by us getting them?

 

[Krill]

If we're sharing techs without taking into account beaker values, yeah, they benefit from us getting them; they all drastically increase the efficiency of our population (by comparison to Cav, every pop point that isn't dedicated to bring in food is up between 1.5 and 2 times as effective as a cav pop point).

The next must have wonder that we have a chance of competing for is possible Taj, to give a (free) GA. TBH if we are still in an alliance by that point the larger civ should get it (and that's proabbly going to be us) just because it'd be more effective.

 

[Memphus]

I think Collosus we don't them, it has to be assumed by everyone we are building it.

Asfor the other 2, once we get masonry, in 3 turns we can look at it.

 

[Krill]

Spoiler :

Namaste Saturn,

We would like to thank you for the delivery of Alphabet, research into Currency has been started, and should be finished soon.

SANCTA feels that while we agree with you an all of the points in your previous letter, we should codify our alliance into a treaty form. We feel the attached treaty is a good starting point and contains all of the major points both teams have already agreed to, but if something has been missed please correct it.

The PASS​

Permanent Alliance of Saturn-SANCTA
Draft​

An agreement between Saturn (Persia) and SANCTA (the Netherlands).
Whereby it is recognized that the thee-way alliance of foreign powers is poised to run away with this game if they are not stopped.

Whereby it is recognized that it is in our mutual self interest to fully cooperate until we are the only two remaining powers in the game.



Article 1: Non-Aggression

It is hereby agreed that we will not attack each other or provide aid, in any form, to anyone fighting any member of the alliance.​

Article 2: Exclusivity

It is hereby agreed that we will not trade or gift technology, offer financial aid or information about alliance plans, or provide military support in any form to non-members of the Alliance. Exceptions to this can be made only by express mutual agreement. (Saturn’s current Math for Feudalism deal is also exempted)
It is furthermore agreed that we will offer each other first choice on any resource trades. Only if the other member of the alliance is uninterested or unable to make a reasonable trade for a resource, will we then seek to trade outside of the alliance.
​

Article 3: Defense

It is hereby agreed that if either member of the alliance comes under direct military attack by an enemy power and the other alliance member is NOT under direct (or imminently direct) attack - the Alliance member who is not under attack will provide significant material and/or financial aid as quickly as they are able.

This defense provision does NOT apply to offensive wars started by a member of the Alliance for purposes of conquest. (Pre-emptive attacks against an invading force are allowed and still count as defense).
​

Article 4: Technology Cooperation

It is hereby agreed that we will cooperate on technology in a generous fashion with eachother.
It is hereby agreed that we will pursue rapid technological advance in good faith – and not attempt to abuse the alliance.
(ie - No member of the Alliance shall stockpile gold at a rate greater than is reasonably necessary for general strategic concerns.)
It is hereby agreed that we will openly and forthrightly share research plans to avoid any duplication of effort and ensure rapid progress.
It is hereby agreed that all technology shall be shared openly, upon request, without regard to beaker value, with eachother.​

Article 5: Sharing of Infomation

It is agreed that information gained from rival teams, eg from chats, emails, and demographics, shall be shared freely between Saturn and SANCTA, and this sharing shall be kept confidential from rival teams.
(ie - if a rival team comments on their technological aims, this infomation will be shared with both Saturn and SANCTA)​

Article 6: End of the Alliance

This alliance will end when Saturn and SANCTA are the only two remaining teams in the game, or upon express mutual agreement to terminate the alliance.
It is hereby agreed that the non-aggression (article 1) part of this alliance will remain in-force for a minimum of 10 turns after the last foreign power is eliminated from the game (either by destruction or capitulation).​

Well, it's a big treaty. Article 3 in particular has been discussed quite thoroughly, to the extent we thought it best to phrase it as written, so any views you have on what would make that acceptable would be useful.

The one point that was in your email that isn't addressed in the above text is MS. Many on SANCTA agree with you that getting MS into the alliance would benefit us greatly, and are willing to approach them. How would you feel this is best achieved?

Krill, Daimyo of the Interior, SANCTA

Words, letters, all new
bureaucratic ramblings on
trust in others faith

Thoughts? I think it's too legalistic, and not warm enough, but it was never going to be.

 

[Memphus]

it needs our seal and a spot for their seal. (that warms it up)

 

[Krill]

I'm quite tempted to leave the treaty until G_W gets back so he can chat with Saturn about it; I don't think I can come across nice enough to not upset them.

Instead, I would favour sending a shortish letter saying that we will have ivory available in eot t94 to trade to them, and then segue into talking about trading resources between ourselves first and then to the outside world afterwards. Thoughts?

That is the last point that is in the proposed treaty that we haven't talked about, so I think if we do that, and send the treaty tomorrow or thursday, we'd probably get it signed by the end of the week.

 

[Memphus]

yeah let's do that.

Might also want to mention we need CoL prior to T95. ask when they want MC.

 

[Krill]

Spoiler :

Namaste Saturn,

We would like to thank you for the swift delivery of alphabet, research into currency has been started.

On a slightly tangential matter, we will have a spare ivory hooked up by the end of turn 94, which we can gift to you if you are in need of happy resource. We feel that sharing resource between ourselves is a natural progression from free tech trading; we have several spare resources that we could trade with you, but unfortunately ivory are the only happy resource we can share until we get calendar.

SANCTA

Gifts from a far shore
shapes of a distant nation
with cordiality

If someone could figure out a way to end that letter I'd much appreciate it, because I don't have a clue how to do it...I'm not a diplomat.