[SCENARIO] World War I

[isenchine]

These are all very good changes! It is nice to have a business with you, sir . Are you limiting your interest to WW1 only? Some amazing WW2 scenario is in dire need for some short but serious help

It's a pleasure to have a fan base with you in the front line since more than 10 months now, Mister Tigranes And thank you for the PBEM game which provides a very interesting source of feedback.

About WW I & II: I was not even really interested in WWI in the first place. My main interest was to technically update the scenario to BtS 3.19. Now, 100 years is a good buffer. I feel WWII as too modern for me, still present in the memories. Also it implies more units, weapons, more combat tactics (air etc) that I'm not familiar with at all.

But since you aroused my curiosity: which mod are you referring to?

About Naval mines: we discussed it already in posts 393-394 and it was felt that their number has to be taken into consideration. Now I wonder if they are replenished enough during a game. Another thought is: why have Naval mines when you can build stronger ships. For these 2 reasons, I don't want to increase their cost.

As to the conversion of enemy mines into friendly ones, it is doable in Python but would imply a further check on every combat in game. A bit heavy. As for the possibility of avoiding mines, I don't see an easy solution and don't like the idea that much.

I agree with 15 combat strength. Destroyers might have a 25% bonus against them. I also thought of the idea of a mine tender which is also a mine sweeper (75 or 100% bonus). What do you think?

 

[Michkov]

I agree with 15 combat strength. Destroyers might have a 25% bonus against them. I also thought of the idea of a mine tender which is also a mine sweeper (75 or 100% bonus). What do you think?

I dont know about DDs having a bonus against mines. They are small unarmored ships not build for sweeping mines. I could see a promo with a 25% bonus but not from the start.
Mine Tenders taking a dual role as sweepers would be the better option. Mine have been sitting in the cities since the first games with nothing to do. Do swap the allegiance of the mines isn't really necessary IMO.
All said I quite like the way KiwiTT has implemented mines, as described above. I'd make them invisible until first encountered though.

As for their strength it goes hand in hand with the discussion about how big are Civs units. Is a DD one ship or a flotilla of them, etc. I'd go for a strength that leaves DDs at 50% strength after 1 battle, maybe with the possibility to loose capital ships(i.e single ship units) to them once in a while.

 

[Michkov]

BTW can you make recon flights interceptable? That was a major reason why fighters appear in the skies in the first place.

 

[isenchine]

Thanks Michkov, I accept your explanation that Destroyers should not get a bonus against Naval mines. You see, I'm not an expert at all in "modern" warfare.

Mine Tenders/Sweepers is still in consideration. If you don't use you Mine Tenders, you don't use Naval mines and I suspect you're not alone. To make them invisible until a first encounter is a good idea but I don't know how to do that. Which KiwiTT mod have you in mind?

Is a DD one ship or a flotilla is a bit irrelevant for me. It goes both ways: A ship can be destroyed by one mine, a flotilla can be destroyed by a mine field. BtS combat calculation is fine for me (better odds with higher strength but you lose sometimes). What I want to do (and can do) is to make mines dead after a "combat": they explode anyway and that's it. Plus they should not count as lost units for the revolution computation, I forgot that I had this in mind.


Recon flights interceptable: I don't know how to do that. Probably in the dll only. I'm not even familiar with mods like Dale's Combat Mod.

 

[Michkov]

Which KiwiTT mod have you in mind?

The one mentioned in post 440 in this thread.

 

[giorgako]

Hi isenchine,
I think Michkov also refers to this mod of KiwiTT: 'The Road to War - Historical'
On the mines issue, I also like the idea of having mines invisible till the first encounter (oops -- missed the argument on difficulty of implementing this )

 

[isenchine]

Thanks both. Downloaded 'The Road to War - Historical'. Nothing really interesting about naval mines as there is no additional code related to them.

 

[isenchine]

As I wanted to destroy Naval mines when a ship hurts them and is sunk, I had to touch the onCombatResult function anyway.

So I decided to play with Tigranes' idea of sweeping mines and loading them unto a Mine Tender/Sweeper. And it works!

The only problem is that I can't avoid the fight.

So, there is a fight between a Mine Tender/Sweeper and a Naval mine:

- if the Naval mine wins, both are destroyed (new rule)

- if the Mine Tender/Sweeper wins, the Naval mine is lost for the enemy and loaded unto the ship. Incidentally, the Mine Tender/Sweeper recovers its health (as there was no "combat" really)

Cool, no? What do you think?

PS: the Mine Tender/Sweeper receives a 100% bonus against Naval Mines. So: 12 * 2 = 24 against 15 now. OK?

 

[Tigranes]

This does sound cool. The only worry is AI, they will never learn to use it.

 

[isenchine]

It doesn't sound so dramatic for the AI here. Of course, the AI doesn't know that attacking a Naval Mine with a Mine Tender/Sweeper might result in gaining a new mine in its belly, but the AI will get the result anyway. The 100% bonus fight, the AI will see it.

Edit: right, but what will the AI do with a ship carrying a mine in enemy territory?... Let's see!

 

[giorgako]

The new mine fight mechanism sounds really cool, isenchine

 

[isenchine]

Enhanced Naval Battles: now you can capture a ship! (and if it's a transport, even loot some gold!)

 

[Michkov]

Enhanced Naval Battles: now you can capture a ship! (and if it's a transport, even loot some gold!)

That seems out of place for the WW1 era. Once you get steamships and long range guns in naval combat, boarding the enemy ships becomes less and less common. Defeated ships tend to scuttle their vessel rather then let it be captured by the enemy.

You'll get the odd vessel captured by commerce raiders. Mostly by the Germans in WW2 when they were raiding the shipping lanes with their Cruisers. Not so much with U-Boats as they didn't have enough men to crew the captured ships.

 

[isenchine]

So Michkov, are you in favour of disabling this entirely? Or let it be if the ship is a transport only?

Note that I have already disabled submarines from capturing ships or being captured.

Also, the possibility of capturing a ship is 15% for the moment.

Any other opinion?

 

[Michkov]

Without trying it ingame I'm neither in favour nor against it. My comment was mostly regarding historical accuracy.
That said 15% for capturing transports sounds good. A nice and simple way to simulate the capture of transports.

Capturing vessel in the harbor (ie in a city in our case) happens occasionally. You could add a capture chance for ships inside a city that is captured by another civ.

 

[isenchine]

Well historical accuracy is important, so thank you for the explanation. Are there not cases where a battle ship was captured in WWI? I could also lower the percentage to 5% (now that the code is in place ).

Good suggestion for the ships captured in a city. I adapted Platyping's War Machines (ships only), added eventual naming of ships kept + promotions Combat I to V (and corresponding level, experience), all other promotions discarded.

 

[Michkov]

Well historical accuracy is important, so thank you for the explanation. Are there not cases where a battle ship was captured in WWI? I could also lower the percentage to 5% (now that the code is in place ).

Not that I know off. I've asked in the History subforum and the apart from the odd freighter here and there no combat vessel gets captured on the high sea.

You get the aforementioned capturing of moored ships in ports, but even there is a chance they get scuttled before the enemy can take control of the ship

 

[Tigranes]

We have other really big fishes to fry guys.

Do we really want rebels in those quantities? DO they accurately convey the experience after (during) Great War?

Honestly, armed rebels were more a reality in Russia, not the rest of the Europe. I suggest to reconsider the revolt mechanic.

1. Let cities go on strike instead of rebels in Europe. Duration and severity depends on war wariness and units lost.

2. Soviet Russia should be a civilization , like America, which appears in 1917, converts culture, units, and cities based on some semirandom pattern. This civ starts at peace with others except Imperial Russia. Rebels (barbarians) appear in Ukraine and Caucuses.

 

[isenchine]

Just one question to Isenchine: for three consecutive turns (4 attempts per turn), my planes tried to destroy (without any success) the British oil platform in the Channel. Are these planes unable to destroy oil platforms?

Oil offshore platform? In the 1910s? You must be joking!

Seriously, it turns out that biplanes have a low chance to destroy these improvements (iBombRate of 5). Compare to a simple Fighter in BtS (iBombRate of 8).

Improvements may have iAirBombDefense and a mine, quarry, well, platform have it set at 10. Fort, forest preserve have an iAirBombDefense of 20. Nothing changed from BtS.

It's all random, but based on these two numbers (iBombRate against iAirBombDefense). Plus maybe other stuff that I don't understand well as the code is all in the dll.

Something to change there? In the statistics I mean.

PS: Offshore platforms were criticized early in the main thread. How to represent oil supply as in reality? Were British ever short of petrol?

Same goes for horses. It's difficult to imagine any European country of that period without horses.

In the mod, there is a possibility to get some "houses" which provide the resource with a GP (I like the idea that you have to sacrify a GP - the AI uses it). I think that some capitals should have some houses from the start.

Copied per memory from the PBEM game thread and for eventual continuation of the discussion.

 

[isenchine]

Not that I know off. I've asked in the History subforum and the apart from the odd freighter here and there no combat vessel gets captured on the high sea.

You get the aforementioned capturing of moored ships in ports, but even there is a chance they get scuttled before the enemy can take control of the ship

Thanks Michkov, that's interesting. I'm still contemplating 5% or 0% chance of capture...

The probability looks higher in ports though. 15% doesn't seem excessive. Maybe just 10%.