Science progression seems slow?

[Txurce]

One way to help this would be to move the late-game culture wonders off the science line. We could also buff the Research Lab by population and/or %.

That being said, I wouldn't mind increasing the culture exponent to 2.4 and decreasing Modern Era tech costs a bit.

I don't think science is slow at all - and you don't either, do you? Finishing the game between 280-320 turns (my widest present range) seems reasonable in a game with another 100 or so turns to go. If anything I would slow down culture wins (although to some degree that slows science even more).

 

[Zaldron]

I don't think science is slow at all - and you don't either, do you? Finishing the game between 280-320 turns (my widest present range) seems reasonable in a game with another 100 or so turns to go. If anything I would slow down culture wins (although to some degree that slows science even more).

I'm not sure the exact formula but won't the 2.2 -> 2.3 exponent be somewhere between a 25-50% increase in total culture required? We should try that first and see how it works (game in progress for me).

 

[Seek]

I don't think science is slow at all - and you don't either, do you? Finishing the game between 280-320 turns (my widest present range) seems reasonable in a game with another 100 or so turns to go. If anything I would slow down culture wins (although to some degree that slows science even more).

I think Modern Era techs cost a little too much, and when we raised the costs you said that it felt like molasses (or something along those lines) so I thought you would agree with me there. An alternative idea is to introduce a science building or wonder on the lower half of the tech tree, so it would be sub-optimal to go for both that and Research Labs but would help out civs not going for spaceship wins.

I'm not sure the exact formula but won't the 2.2 -> 2.3 exponent be somewhere between a 25-50% increase in total culture required? We should try that first and see how it works (game in progress for me).

I haven't worked out the math but I'd be surprised if it was that much of an increase. In a test game for inclusion of the Great Works mod, I set the exponent to 2.3 and got a culture win around T240 (with only slightly stronger Great Artist culture amounts).

 

[Txurce]

I think Modern Era techs cost a little too much, and when we raised the costs you said that it felt like molasses (or something along those lines) so I thought you would agree with me there.

We raised the costs a while ago. I think there was a subsequent adjustment, because I now think it's pretty dead on. If I thought it was a little slow anywhere, it would be in the Modern Era like you said, and would have no problem having those adjusted downward a little.

An alternative idea is to introduce a science building or wonder on the lower half of the tech tree, so it would be sub-optimal to go for both that and Research Labs but would help out civs not going for spaceship wins.

Do you mean in the lower half of the Modern Era tree? That makes sense, as long as it's also on the SS route there as well. In this case, there'd be no need to adjust the Modern tech rate.

 

[Zaldron]

I haven't worked out the math but I'd be surprised if it was that much of an increase. In a test game for inclusion of the Great Works mod, I set the exponent to 2.3 and got a culture win around T240 (with only slightly stronger Great Artist culture amounts).

Exponential and polynomial growth get very surprising. Let's consider two cases for the forumula, where k is used for the 2.2/2.3 number, and n is the number of policies (36), and c is another constant that we can factor out:

Polynomial factor:
c * n^k => (c * 36^2.3) / (c * 36^2.2) = 36^2.3/36^2.2 = 1.43, or a 43% increase.

Alternately it might be exponential: (c * k^n) => (c * 2.3^36) / (c * 2.2^36) = (2.3/2.2)^36 = 4.95 or a 395% increase in cost.


Also, did you check if you were you getting "bonus" culture? I was just playing a game where I was getting about 65% more culture than I should be each turn which will obviously speed things along, see my other 152.6 thread.

 

[Castar]

How many gross beakers were you using each turn at the end? And the end was turn what?

Apparently I don't have a near-ending savegame, which sucks. The last save I have is 1892, and I finished around 1970-1980. In 1892 I was apparently producing 600 science per turn (exactly: 5 for free, 570.25 from cities and 24.75 from city-states). Looking at tech costs and what I remember from the amount of turns it would take to research the modern era techs I ended at, I'd say that increased to between 800 and 900 per turn by the time the game ended. By comparison, by 1892 I had 338 culture (that's before Eiffel Tower or Piety). Next policy cost is 3550, next tech cost is 13000. It's clear that the ratio between production and cost of culture and science is not really balanced. This is mid-industrial age, by the time we get to the modern age this becomes even worse, even with Research Labs and increased pops (~25 for both cities now, both cities ended at ~40).

 

[Seek]

Do you mean in the lower half of the Modern Era tree? That makes sense, as long as it's also on the SS route there as well. In this case, there'd be no need to adjust the Modern tech rate.

I was thinking one or two techs off the SS line, perhaps on Atomic Theory.

Exponential and polynomial growth get very surprising. Let's consider two cases for the forumula, where k is used for the 2.2/2.3 number, and n is the number of policies (36), and c is another constant that we can factor out:

Polynomial factor:
c * n^k => (c * 36^2.3) / (c * 36^2.2) = 36^2.3/36^2.2 = 1.43, or a 43% increase.

Alternately it might be exponential: (c * k^n) => (c * 2.3^36) / (c * 2.2^36) = (2.3/2.2)^36 = 4.95 or a 395% increase in cost.


Also, did you check if you were you getting "bonus" culture? I was just playing a game where I was getting about 65% more culture than I should be each turn which will obviously speed things along, see my other 152.6 thread.

Thanks, that is quite a difference indeed (I'm absolutely certain it's not exponential).

I did not notice if I was getting bonus culture, but I'll keep an eye out in the future for sure!

@Castar - Do you recall the turn number? Dates have been changed recently, and I for one have no idea what turn 1892 or 1982 falls on.

 

[Txurce]

The last save I have is 1892, and I finished around 1970-1980. In 1892 I was apparently producing 600 science per turn (exactly: 5 for free, 570.25 from cities and 24.75 from city-states). Looking at tech costs and what I remember from the amount of turns it would take to research the modern era techs I ended at, I'd say that increased to between 800 and 900 per turn by the time the game ended.

RA's would have helped a lot, but more to the point, 800-900 bpt at the end is quite low. At that rate, it figures that your culture rate left your science in the dust. For comparison, playing with 6-8 cities and finishing between t280-320, I am well over 2000, and sometimes over 3000.

I was thinking one or two techs off the SS line, perhaps on Atomic Theory.

The reason I would keep it on the SS line if we were to try to boost late science a little, is that I haven't noticed a call for stronger late-game science from warmongers. I don't see why we would boost them but not everyone else.

 

[Thalassicus]

Are you referring to VEP_General.xml Policy_Cost_Exponent (which is 2.3)?

Right, I meant 2.2 to 2.3.

Several things: my game was Standard speed, another player said something about marathon, but that wasn't me. As you did not really count that as a factor it's not really important, however.

Oops! You're absolutely right, I mixed up your statements with Sanguinus.

Yall can experiment with costs using the CivVModding.xls spreadsheet attached below. I'll start including it in the mod folder. The tabs you want are "policy costs" and "techs."

The cost for a culture victory increased by 260%/170% = +52%. Income also rose because Great Artists can now provide instant culture. The actual time to get a culture victory can't be calculated. It's a complex combination of cost, income, city expansion, buildings we build, and so on. I figure out the individual factors like below, and combine that with personal experience to make an educated guess.

 

[Castar]

@Castar - Do you recall the turn number? Dates have been changed recently, and I for one have no idea what turn 1892 or 1982 falls on.

1892 is 273, but I can't remember the end turn number.

RA's would have helped a lot, but more to the point, 800-900 bpt at the end is quite low. At that rate, it figures that your culture rate left your science in the dust. For comparison, playing with 6-8 cities and finishing between t280-320, I am well over 2000, and sometimes over 3000.

Two things:

- I don't really see how RA's would have helped. Due to me always being leagues ahead in science (and thus, presumably, scienceproduction), I would get nearly nothing from the 3-6% of combined research, no? I didn't in the beginning of the game, at least, though admittedly I sort of ignored it in the later game and can't really comment on the effects.

- As I had, well, nearly everything that boosts science, with a very large population, I don't really see how I could have increased science much. Except for "play wider". But, firstly, the increase in research wouldn't be all that much (I'd have to slow down pop-growth and wait until those small baby-cities built up to theaters before letting pop grow again, which would probably just slow me down) and secondly, I'd presumed that Science is one of the victories that should be able to be won by playing (very) tall (along with Culture).

 

[Txurce]

I don't really see how RA's would have helped. Due to me always being leagues ahead in science (and thus, presumably, science production), I would get nearly nothing from the 3-6% of combined research, no?

RA's are based on beakers, not techs. You probably weren't that far ahead in beakers, because your own total wasn't that high. This definitely would have helped - even more than additional CS alliances with the Patronage science policy (although that would have also helped). But even this doesn't fully explain your relatively low beaker output.

As I had, well, nearly everything that boosts science, with a very large population, I don't really see how I could have increased science much. Except for "play wider". But, firstly, the increase in research wouldn't be all that much (I'd have to slow down pop-growth and wait until those small baby-cities built up to theaters before letting pop grow again, which would probably just slow me down) and secondly, I'd presumed that Science is one of the victories that should be able to be won by playing (very) tall (along with Culture).

Science can definitely be won by going tall, but two cities is pushing it. I find it easy to have four, and pretty easy to have 6-8 that stay happy almost all the time. That's growing them all the time. Add in the non pop-based effects of science buildings in these cities, plus the likely net increase in total population, and you have more science.

 

[claestw]

So I started a Settlers game as my first game with this mod. The ideas and directions I've been seeing is great. Since I've been playing with 0 City States, No Huts, No Barbarians for a while, I decided to run the same settings. Continents Plus, Vikings, Standard-Standard. Pure builder's game.

First thing I noticed just a few turns into the game is that the mod runs very much slower than the vanilla game, and loading a savegame in 1780 AD took long enough for me to become impatient, start doubting that it crashed, got up to get some water, come back and start surfing the web. (C2D 2.66GHz, 4GB.)

Now on science rate. Since I wanted a easy baseline for comparison, I've been researching horizontally, completing all techs of the same cost before progressing to the next tier. I also didn't enter into any research agreements. Early strategy was rapid expansion with cities 4 hexes apart, two or three specialized production cities and the rest gold/science. Liberty 100% > Honor 100% > Commerce 3/5 > Enlightenment 2/5.

The game is now at 1780 AD (turn 186) and I have Economics and Chemistry, working on Fertilizer now with a mere 656 beakers per turn. I'm running out of meaningful things to build in my production cities, so I've been building quite a few wonders. Here's what the empire looks like, with the numbers denoting the order in which I settled them. (To block off the two neighbours.)



I do have 33 excess happiness and 497gpt that should have been spent buying settlers and buildings, but my five-year-old computer is not up to it.

You can see that there's a hole right in the middle of my core cities. The border expansion is really slow here, but with no maritime city states, the growth is also slow enough that I never run out of plots to work. There's plenty of room for expansion (and I should), but it's already taking up to 5 seconds just to open a city screen, adding one item into the production queue take 3 seconds. It's just unbearable.

I think the science rate here is slow compared to vanilla, but it also means that I have ample opportunities to make use of my troops. In that regard, I think the science rate is fine. A game played "properly" with city states, research agreements and trade, would have growth and science rate much faster.

I did find that the AIs are performing much better here. Perhaps the research agreements are helping them out nicely.

From this game, I think the only thing I really disliked is how the borders refuse to expand; however, considering that I had no culture city states to help me, nor did I invest in the Tradition/Piety trees, it's actually good that I felt the consequences. Come to think of it, I invested in Honor by habit, but I didn't really need it in a builder's game with guaranteed advantages. Should have invested in Piety.

Anyways, I'd say the mod has amplified the consequences of choices. Choosing not to sign research agreements, not to invest in culture policies, not befriend city states, had consequences that can be felt, and that's good.

What's bad, is that I can't play this mod on a Standard map, it's too slow for my old computer. Hmmm, I guess Diablo III is a good excuse for some timely upgrades.

 

[Seek]

Just had a turn 223 culture win on 152.6 - I still stand by my thoughts that raising the cultural exponent would be a good idea, in part because of the new GArt, and in part because of something that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion yet: GAges boost culture significantly. I think making Archeology require Scientific Method would also be wise - using Oxford, I bulbed Arch and built the Louvre extremely early. I used the Enlightenment finisher to tech rapidly to Mass Media for the SOH, but it proved totally unnecessary (as did rush-buying Broadcast Towers in both of my cities), it saved me around 10 turns at best.

 

[Txurce]

I think making Archeology require Scientific Method would also be wise - using Oxford, I bulbed Arch and built the Louvre extremely early.

I don't think there's anything OP about that strategy - it's just a good idea. But it seems pretty clear that CV's are coming around too fast. The catch, as I think Thal has pointed out, is that slowing down the culture rate slows the game down for everyone, making it less fun. That's the aspect that has to be balanced.

 

[Thalassicus]

I don't really see how RA's would have helped. Due to me always being leagues ahead in science (and thus, presumably, scienceproduction), I would get nearly nothing from the 3-6% of combined research, no?

Say we have 400 rate and our five AI allies have 200. We're far ahead of them. If we sign RAs with them we personally gain:

5 * 0.06 * 600 = 180 per turn.

That increases our personal science rate +45%.

 

[Seek]

(1) I don't think there's anything OP about that strategy - it's just a good idea. But it seems pretty clear that CV's are coming around too fast. The catch, as I think Thal has pointed out, is that (2) slowing down the culture rate slows the game down for everyone, making it less fun. That's the aspect that has to be balanced.

(1) Bear in mind that city state yield rise with eras too - the earlier you can tech up the more you'll get out of them (obviously with culture being the most important). Plus, it makes sense that the science of archeology requires scientific method if it is to be of any value!

(2) Increasing the exponent should affect later policies far more than earlier ones, from my understanding, thus affecting Culture players more than others. The rate can also be "shaped" if necessary by changing the exponent and the coefficient (assuming there is a coefficient in this equation).

 

[Jaybe]

Say we have 400 rate and our five AI allies have 200. We're far ahead of them. If we sign RAs with them we personally gain:

5 * 0.06 * 600 = 180 per turn.

That increases our personal science rate +45%.

In addition to the substantial gained at the conclusion of the agreement due to (currently) inaccessible code.

Could every agreement be terminated one turn before its conclusion?

 

[Zaldron]

Just had a turn 223 culture win on 152.6 - I still stand by my thoughts that raising the cultural exponent would be a good idea, in part because of the new GArt, and in part because of something that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion yet: GAges boost culture significantly. I think making Archeology require Scientific Method would also be wise - using Oxford, I bulbed Arch and built the Louvre extremely early. I used the Enlightenment finisher to tech rapidly to Mass Media for the SOH, but it proved totally unnecessary (as did rush-buying Broadcast Towers in both of my cities), it saved me around 10 turns at best.

I just won a 4 city cultural victory on 152.10 around turn 305 (EDIT: this is *much* slower than a comparable win I had on 152.6 at about 240 turns) BUT I was getting 1500 free culture on an expected 2200 net culture income. If my culture had been where the tooltip said it should be it would have been 350+ turns, possibly after a spaceship win was available.

I definitely wouldn't increase the exponent further until more experimentation is done about the free/buggy culture.

 

[Thalassicus]

Could every agreement be terminated one turn before its conclusion?

I know we can end declarations of friendship early, but I'm not sure about trade deals. I'll ask in the main modding forum.

@Zaldron
It's more likely a tooltip mistake than misassigned yields.