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Scotland!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - New Civilizations' started by WaxonWaxov, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

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    sadistik: ireland was Hibernia, not scotia major (or did it have 2 names), it was 5 kingdoms, not 4 (connaught, ulster, leinster, munster & meath) although NOW it is the 4 provinces, as meath is now part of leinster. justa bitta info :)
    ~Q
     
  2. Sisonpyh

    Sisonpyh Prince

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    Lankou:

    Tried loading the scotland superciv version. Got an error regarding the Guerilla I/Guerilla II promotions. Maybe you typo'd or something, not sure.
     
  3. Halk

    Halk Chieftain

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    Are unit graphics even important to anyone? I've never cared about them as long as I could tell my units apart :)

    Seriously though...

    Something that Braveheart got spot on was the use of schiltrons against enemy cavalry. Warfare had changed and you needed cavalry. Schiltrons were the next step, and to some degree cancelled the cavalry charge.

    A unique unit in Civ is usually either a beefed up version of the standard one, available at the same time, or access to a class of weapon a little earlier in the tech tree. This would be Scotland gaining access to anti-cavalry technology before everyone else.

    The Schiltron is something very important to Scottish history, as the Battle of Bannockburn, however the gallic swordsmen idea is not really specific to Scotland as it was used before Scotland existed as a whole.

    As for Kenneth MacAlpine, since nobody mentioned him...

    He was the first King of Scotland, probably more accurate to call him MacAlipin (yep, done some googling to check what I think is correct, is correct!).

    He united the Dalriada and Pict crowns to form a united Scotland in the 9th century. He did a lot of fighting to do it, basically repeatedly beating the Picts.
     
  4. WaxonWaxov

    WaxonWaxov Warlord

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    Yep. Me too. Doesn't work
     
  5. Sadistik

    Sadistik Warlord

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    Meath was not a kingdom on the same level as Leinster, Connaught, Ulster, or Munster. At some times it was ruled by Ulstermen or Leinstermen. It's regarded often as the fifth province, but it often wasn't. ;)

    As for Ireland's name, we're both right. Hibernia was the Roman name, but the Post-Roman name was Scotia until the Medieval times where Scotland came to be known as Scotland and an inhabitant a Scot.

    http://www.reformation.org/expanded_map_of_scotia_major.html

    Scotia = Ireland. Scotia Major = Variant similar to "Great Britain" as opposed to "Britain". Scotia Minor = Scotland, because the "civilized" people in the Latin world thought that the Irish tribe that supposedly founded Scotland were the Scots (They weren't. They were the Dal Riadans of Ulster.)

    Since Ireland/Hibernia = Scotia, Scotland/Scotia Minor was, to put it simply "Little Ireland". Because it was just a single tribe of Irishmen and the Picts in Scotland it was much easier to unify than Ireland where they had 1,000 years of chaos and rivalry. It took a no-name minor noble like Boru to shake it up, and to this day he and Bruce were the only "true" kings in Ireland ;)


    Another thing that most people don't know is that the Scottish royal family (MacAlpin) was a branch of the Irish royal family (O'Neill, from king Niall of the Nine Hostages).

    See: Here


    Yep. Even Kenneth MacAlpin was an O'Neill, and nearly all genealogists will confirm this lineage. That's enough Gaelic history from me for now ;)
     
  6. WaxonWaxov

    WaxonWaxov Warlord

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    And the O'Neals were descendants of Saint Sarah, the daughter of Mary of Magdalene and Jesus of Nazareth.

    :)
     
  7. Sadistik

    Sadistik Warlord

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    I don't know about that, but my ancestor Conall Cernach witnessed the crucifixion. ;)

    (Shame on you for invoking the Da Vinci code.)
     
  8. purplexus

    purplexus Prince

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    I was just thinking ..... Wasn't the One of the most important leaders of the Scots someone named Mary or something like that? Queen Mary of the Scots?
    not sure... But one thing I think I do know is that it was this person's line of heritage that is still the reigning Royal in the UK
     
  9. Reveilled

    Reveilled Warlord

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    Mary, Queen of Scots, yes. How great a leader she was...ehh, is debateable. She tried to fix the country's problems, but she failed, losing a civil war (albiet a very short one) in the process. She was imprisoned, her son was taken from her and raised a protestant. She ended up in England, Queen Elizabeth later had her beheaded.

    Her son, James VI and I, became King of England upon the death of Queen Elizabeth.

    She isn't so much remembered for being great as for being a tragic figure.
     
  10. WaxonWaxov

    WaxonWaxov Warlord

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    NEW VERSION ALERT!

    See the edited post #3 in this thread.

    Thanks to all for their help.
     
  11. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    If you want my opinion, the leaders should be Robert de Brus and Máel Coluim II mac Cináeda (or even Máel Coluim III mac Donnchada). The leaders should be Gaels, so definitely James VI is no candidate. William Wallace is famous, and indeed an important common leader of the WoI; but his fame lies chiefly as a Lothian folk-hero made big by Blind Harry and Mel Gibson. He's no more a potential leader that Pizarro is a leader of the Spanish.

    King Guillaume fils de Henri was a Frenchman by nation; he reigned a long time, but he is an anti-Scottish figure who spent much of his reign suppressing rebellions. King Causantín II mac Áeda is another that could be considered, as indeed is Macbethad mac Findlàech, who was nothing like the cruel tyrant portrayed in Shakespeare.
     
  12. Reveilled

    Reveilled Warlord

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    Didn't Malcolm III get his arse whupped by Williams I and II of England, leading to the loss of considerable amounts of Scottish territory? And I'm not sure about the Scots having to be Gaels. Scotland is more than just the Gaels! ;)

    I can't find anything on William the Lion supressing rebellions, though. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places, but could you provide a source?
     
  13. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    Read, Outlaws of Medieval Scotland: Challenges to the Canmore Kings, 1058-1266, (East Linton, 2003) by R.A. MacDonald. Máel Coluim III is important just for his sheer historical influence. He actually invaded England 5 times, dying on the last one. Guillaume invaded once, got caught at Alnwick, and signed the Treaty of Falaise, the most ignominious treaty in Scottish history.His capture was followed by a massive revolt of his Scottish and Gallovidian subjects, who proceeded to massacre the French and English placed in their lands.

    Scotland is a historical state, and no longer exists, The word meant "Land of the Gaels"; to foreigners that is (the Scots called it Alba). The rulers don't have to be Gaels, but theoretically they should, esp. in a game like civilization.
     
  14. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    Ireland has three ancient names: Eriu, Fotla and Banba. Scotia is Latin, and just meant "Gael-Land", so obviously could be used for Ireland, Scotland or both collectively. Ireland was often called Scotia Maiora in constrast to Scotia Minora (i.e. Scotland). King Robert de Brus calls it that in fact. In the Dark Ages, Scotia could be used to mean just the island of Ireland. Of course, only in Latin. As you point out, though, Hibernia was more common ... and lacked the initial ethnic connotations of Scotia.

    Check this out if you want:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_I_of_Scotland#Bruce_and_Ireland

    BTW, you're right that cóiceda implies a five-fold division, but only four are important: Connacht, Mumu, Ulaid and Laigin. Because cóiced means fifth, Mide (meaning "center") was added; but sometimes Mumu was counted as 2 cóiceda.
     
  15. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

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    hmm. i am supposed to be a native speaker (but i am HOPLESS at the language. i much prefer the bit of german i know :) ) but as far as i know middle is "lár" .but maybe you are correct in a sence that scottich-gealic might be a bit diferent to irish-gealic. i dont really know.
    but what i do know is that meath was very important, in that it contained the Hill Of Tara, the home of the high kings. it is a SERIOUS mistake to say it was not important, just because it was small, and has now emalgimated with another provice ( i know that the province (leinster) it has assimilated into is NOW the province of the capital, Dublin)
     
  16. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    I didn't mean not important in that sense, just not functionally independent of the 4 cóiceda. Mide is, of course, Old Irish, and not modern Irish. In Scottish Gaelic there is the word Meadhon, Meadhon-latha, etc. I'm sure there is something like that in modern Irish Gaelic.
     
  17. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

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    ah, i figured as much.
     
  18. WaxonWaxov

    WaxonWaxov Warlord

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    Threadjack alert!

    Agreed that Scotland is not a "historical state." But if America, England, France, and the other "new" countries can be Civs in Civilization, then Scotland can be as well.
     
  19. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    Scotland is a historical state, that's the point. I obviously think it can be a civ, since I made a Scottish civ for civ3 (see my sig). I do think at least one ruler of the Scots should be taken from period 741-1124. Anyways, I don't have civ4 yet, so I can only offer my knowledge.
     
  20. WaxonWaxov

    WaxonWaxov Warlord

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    Agreed. I will have at least one in the next update of this mod.
     

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