Scout -> Archer upgrade (Ruins): no ignore terrain costs?

[EsoEs]

So yea kind of a wierd thought I had the other day but..

I distinctly remember in vanilla popping ancient runes with a scout and getting the "advanced weaponry" pop, sometimes converting said scout into a spearman, and sometimes an archer. I remember these units were so much fun to play with, who doesn't like an ignore terrain cost archer?

So then I started thinking about my VEM games, and I can honestly say I don't ever remember a scout getting an advanced weaponry ancient rune pop. Whats the deal with this exactly, is my memory as bad as I know it is or was there a code change in VEM that Im not aware of that would affect this sort of thing..

 

[sukritact]

I always received an archer from upgrading a scout, and always a spearman from upgrading a warrior, both in vanilla and in VEM.

 

[Sneaks]

It appears that Thal did indeed remove the capacity for scouts to upgrade to Archers, unfortunately.

Obviously, I think this change should be removed, as there is zero sense in preventing scouts from changing paths but allowing warriors to do otherwise.

 

[tlaurila]

Scout to archer changes unit type (Vanguard -> Ranged)
Besides, how come the scouts who found "advanced weapons" in the ruins can ignore terrain movement costs armed with these weapons, whereas archers you train with the same weapons after discovering them yourself cannot?

Whereas warrior->spearman changes nothing else but improves combat prowess across the board.

So I think the change makes perfect sense. Further, advanced weapons is a relatively weak roll on the ruins, so if it is ignored by scouts, it means scouts have a better chance for the better results. The specialist explorers being better at exploring ruins is nice.

 

[Thalassicus]

If ignore terrain persists, it messes up balance of later units in the class. If it doesn't persist, upgrading a scout to an archer hurts early exploration. The simplest solution is to limit rewards to free culture, research, and a big map reveal.

 

[Ahriman]

I would much rather have scout-> archer than I would the map reveal.

 

[Thalassicus]

I'll add it back in. I do believe the upgrade hurts us though, since it reduces our chances of getting future ruins and making first contact with citystates.

 

[Sneaks]

Why remove the upgrade? Sure, there is the distinct possibility that you get what later becomes a Rifle with ignore terrain, but the AI has equal chance.

I think this is a situation in which the old status quo did not really harm balance in any way.

 

[Txurce]

I think Thal's reasoning was correct in making the change. I could add that a promoted Scout is a moderate-size game changer, introducing a hefty factor of luck in a mod where Thal has comprehensively worked to reduce outliers (sometimes to my dismay). If I spent some time thinking about it, there are probably other examples of this that I would rather have reversed first. But...

There is no denying the fun of a promoted Scout. As usual the human benefits more than the AI, but I don't think it's a huge example of this. And the fun aspect of gameplay, as determined by VEM consensus, should probably trump other considerations.

 

[Dunkah]

The scout promoted to Archer was fun unit to play with.

One of the units that always got a unique name in my games!

 

[Ahriman]

I'll add it back in. I do believe the upgrade hurts us though, since it reduces our chances of getting future ruins and making first contact with citystates.

I think the archer (without the no-terrain upgrade) is still much more valuable than the scout, particularly given how crucial an archer is to early game war. You're usually unlikely to get more than a handful of ruins or city state first contacts on most maps, particularly given all the free AI units on high difficulty levels.

An early archer is a huge advantage. Also great for barbarian clearing.

I think an ignore-terrain archer is too powerful from an upgrade though, I agree with Txurce here.

 

[Thalassicus]

@Sneaks
When a general combat class had 0xp access to ignore-terrain it reduced the importance of rivers and rough terrain. I didn't like how that played out in the games I tested. This is why I moved ignore-terrain to the Recon 1 promotion, and changed the Scout's base ignore-terrain to non-persistent. Upgrading an ignore-terrain archer to crossbows/rifles isn't a problem since it's limited to at most one or two units per game.

 

[EsoEs]

@Sneaks
When a general combat class had cheap access to ignore-terrain it reduced the importance of rivers and rough terrain. I didn't like how that played out in the games I tested. This is why I moved ignore-terrain to the Recon 1 promotion, and changed the Scout's base ignore-terrain to non-persistent. Upgrading an ignore-terrain archer to crossbows/rifles isn't a problem since it's limited to at most one or two units per game.

Wait so upgraded scouts lose the ignore terrain promotion? (

 

[Thalassicus]

Yes, these changes to scouts were made in v74 on June 16, three months ago.

 

[EsoEs]

Yes, these changes to scouts were made several months ago.

Was the "build lots of scouts hoard gold upgrade" strategy too powerful? Cuz if not having 1 or 2 Vanguards with a free ignore terrain cost in the mix seems really fun

 

[Thalassicus]

I typically had 5-10 militia with ignore terrain (former Levies). I don't like how that simplified tactics around high-cost terrain. It's not worth it to make such an impact on warfare just for a small (and rare) perk from ancient ruins.

 

[EsoEs]

I dont think having a ruin upgraded unit with ignore terrain really affects gameplay as much as you're making it seem (the chances of actually building two early scouts, and them both receiving an advanced weapon pop from huts is absurdly low). What I was talking about in my most recent post was hard upgrading scouts, it seems fine that they would keep their innate promotions as having 1 or 2 isn't super game changing, unless there was a really OP strategy of just building tons of scouts early and then upgrading them to levies. In that case its a no brainer, but if that isnt actually a viable strategy, I dont see any reason to not let them keep their innate upgrades similar to how a UU functions. I cant think off the top of my head of other examples atm.

 

[Thalassicus]

unless there was a really OP strategy of just building tons of scouts early and then upgrading them to levies.

Yes, this is what I was referring to. I used this strategy often in early June. It felt very exploitative against the AI, because they don't recognize the importance of screening a retreat. Their units get slaughtered when retreating through slow terrain. This is why I limited ignore-terrain to the Recon 1 promotion, which has no combat bonuses.

 

[Ahriman]

I agree that scouts upgrading to levies shouldn't keep the ignore terrain bonus.

 

[Txurce]

Yes, this was the first thing I did with the Vanguard change.