Scout Upgrade Path

[The Disciple]

Scouts are often used as an early game exploration unit. They can also sometimes be useful in main military formations for battlefield recon. But, their poor combat strength means they don't last long. Especially when going up against medieval to modern units - and they suffer for lack of an upgrade path in these eras. In the ancient era, the scout is functional as light infantry, and can even go toe to toe with warriors and barbarians - while also giving good intel. It would be good to maintain this functionality through the era's.

Suggestion 1 - Integrate Scouts into Melee Upgrade Path

- Make Scouts upgradable into Riflemen when the technology becomes available.
- The Scout > Rifle unit would retain it's, "ignore terrain cost", and scout specific bonuses. To produce a modern recon unit.

Suggestion 2 - Create Upgrade Path for Scouts

- Make Scouts upgradable to Pioneer.
- The Pioneer has all the capabilities of a Scout with an increased combat strength.
- The Pioneer is unlocked in the late Medieval Era.
- Make Pioneer upgradeable to Marksman.
- The Marksman gains a Ranged attack capability, with a range of 2; though still retaining the survivability/scouting upgrade paths.
- The Marksman is unlocked in Renaissance Era.
- The Marksman (and it's successor unit, the Sniper Team) loose their ability to pillage tiles.
- Make the Marksman upgradeable to Sniper Team.
- The Sniper Team, also has a ranged attack, with a range of 3, and maintains the survivability/scouting upgrade paths.
- The Sniper Team becomes stealthed to non-adjacent units, and gains the ability to see other stealth units. Introducing a counter-sniping mechanic.
- The Sniper Team is unlocked in the Industrial Era.
- The Sniper Team has a damage bonus vs. Great People (aka. it can 1 shot kill a Great General when there are no other military units on the tile).


The alternative to the Marksman/Sniper Team progression would be to retain the industrial/modern scout unit as a non-stealth melee unit. Perhaps driving around in a Humvee and getting one extra move per turn.

These changes would maintain the recon capabilities throughout the era's, and preserve the utility of this unit class. So it is an important addition to the game mechanics.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

In Civ V, the scout is the only 'unit type' that no Upgrade Path at all, which in game terms is simply ridiculous. It also makes scouts virtually useless after about Turn 50 - 80, when Barbarians start forming Horsemen and other Civs have Composite Bowmen and Swordsmen - after that, your scouts are slaughtered before they can find anything.

Historically, you run into the problem of finding good 'scout' units that are not identical to the combat units - in most of the Classical and Medieval periods, there were no specific 'scouts', just light cavalry and light infantry that were sent out to see 'what's on the other side of the hill'.

It's not impossible, though.
First, we have to assume that scouts, for much of the game (and much of history) were and are not intended for combat, but simply to survive long enough to get back with useful information.

So, here are my suggestions:

Scout - Starting unit

Prodromoi - "Those who go ahead' - a light cavalry unit, factors less than the regular Horseman, but slightly faster, longer sight range than regular units. Classical Era

Dragoon - Renaissance mounted unit. Uses cavalry cast-off horses, so no resource requirement, slightly lower factors than Musketman, but as fast as Cavalry. Dismounts to fight, so no pikes/spears get a bonus against them

Armored Car - Industrial Era unit, fastest ground unit in the game (faster than Tanks or Cavalry) BUT rough terrain really slows them down - jungles, forests, marshes, etc. Combat factor, though, is higher than previous scout units relative to contemporary combat units: higher than Great War Infantry, for instance, which comes just before it.

Rangers (Commandos, Brandenburgers, etc) the specialized 'scouts' of the Modern Era (WWII). lighter factors than regular infantry, but ignore terrain restrictions, longer sight radius, and can spot for artillery or aircraft.

Special Forces - Atomic/Information Era scouts: are invisible on the map to opponents unless in same tile, can be air dropped anywhere on the map, ignore all terrain restrictions, can spot for artillery or aircraft.

 

[Volcanon]

Why not just make it so scouts upgrade to archers like they do when you get a goody hut?

Of course that might make archers even more powerful since they would get the scout land travel bonus.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I'm okay with the scout the way it is. It's cheap to build but you don'the want to build too many because (although critically important early) they will lose their usefulness as time goes on. How many hammers to invest in a unit that WILL go obsolete is one of the important decisions that needs to be made in the early game.

 

[Eklabiaan]

To me, scouts remain usefull at least into the industrial era. So I agree with the OP that they need an upgrade path. Something like his Suggestion 2 would be fine with me.
As long as the scout/upgrade is strong enough to survive one attack if you play dump/risky, or can evade/retreat. Say 50 to 80% of the weakest infantry of the era.

Their use in later era's is their extended visibility range (Scouting I and II, and Sentry) which I use to peek over the borders of a country I have no open borders with. This gives me some info on their troop strength and deployment. The only reload I did last few months was when losing two scouts in a war with Wu Zetian, when I send them in without covering cavalry...

The natural upgrade in the Information era is the Cyber warrior, of course . Based in a city with a Military Base, and having researched Satellites, Telecom, or the Internet (the earliest or most appropriate one) he can lift the fog of war on any map area/city you want. Maybe he should be converted from an animated unit into a special form of a spy.

 

[epicivfreak]

Seems like the simplest solution would be to just add better promotions for the scout. If each promotion was simply called "Level Up #" or whatever, and gave the following for each promotion level:
+1 Visibililty, +50% Attack, and +50% Defense
+50% Attack, and +50% Defense
+1 Visibility, +100% Attack and +100 Defense
+100% Attack and +100 Defense

Seems they'd be better and more useful that way, though I'm not certain that Civ5 modding can handle that easily, as I have yet to even look in them thar folders.

 

[Browd]

The main issue with scouts is that they are so frail, even with percentage strength promotions -- by later eras, they die if an enemy unit looks at them harshly. Since scouts become obsolete (i.e., unbuildable) when you research Scientific Theory, you could have Scientific Theory unlock an "upgrade only" recon or explorer unit (analogous mechanic to the "only buyable, not buildable" landsknechts, at perhaps the same upgrade cost as a newly bought landsknecht). The upgraded unit would remain a melee-type unit (i.e., not mounted or ranged, but perhaps technically classed as a gunpowder unit with its era peers), with the same capabilities and promotion path as a scout, but better combat strength. I would suggest 17 combat strength (up from 5 CS), which would still leave the new unit only half as powerful as a rifleman (34 CS), but that should be strong enough not to melt away when attacked, though too weak to survive more than a single round of one-on-one combat. That would give you the choice of retreating or dying, but that's better than just dying.

 

[TheVillageGamer]

On paper, I looooove your 2nd suggestion; however, I feel that you are possibly overcompensating for the Scout's uselessness to the point of making his upgrades overpowered. First off, I say you keep the Sniper at 2 range. There is no need for your Scouts to compete with the most potent ranged units of the game (just for scale, he would have the same range as a Battleship or Artillery), and since ranged gunpowder units of the Industrial Era onwards only have one tile of range, it would be nice to keep the in-between option of two sweet tiles of range. The one-shot bonus is probably obsolete, since my experience has told me that they are always killed in one hit -Bombers and battleships show me they will only do half damage but kill them anyways, and melee units either capture them or kill them just by moving into their tile. Finally, a Sniper Team should lose its Stealth if an enemy unit sees it moving, and get invisible again if it leaves the units LoS, then reenters it while immobile. This should still permit the counter snipin mechanic- just scramble around Snipers of your own, which, as long as they are stationed in certain positions, should see any advancing Snipers without being seen.

 

[The Disciple]

On paper, I looooove your 2nd suggestion; however, I feel that you are possibly overcompensating for the Scout's uselessness to the point of making his upgrades overpowered. First off, I say you keep the Sniper at 2 range. There is no need for your Scouts to compete with the most potent ranged units of the game (just for scale, he would have the same range as a Battleship or Artillery), and since ranged gunpowder units of the Industrial Era onwards only have one tile of range, it would be nice to keep the in-between option of two sweet tiles of range. The one-shot bonus is probably obsolete, since my experience has told me that they are always killed in one hit -Bombers and battleships show me they will only do half damage but kill them anyways, and melee units either capture them or kill them just by moving into their tile. Finally, a Sniper Team should lose its Stealth if an enemy unit sees it moving, and get invisible again if it leaves the units LoS, then reenters it while immobile. This should still permit the counter snipin mechanic- just scramble around Snipers of your own, which, as long as they are stationed in certain positions, should see any advancing Snipers without being seen.

Thanks for the feedback. I do see your point about the Sniper Team. Because, detecting stealth and firing at range 3, would give advantage to the moving sniper. When in reality, advantage should go to the Sniper Team that is stationary.


In practice, a Sniper should need to reach their "hide" and range the battlefield before they could fire. So perhaps they need to spend one move setting up. Just like Artillery.

 

[Aea]

I feel like Sniper Teams are just too small of a unit to really represent in CIV.

In my mind something like an Infantry (or any Melee Land Unit) is at least Regiment or even Brigade sized, you don't have Sniper teams approaching anywhere near that size.

 

[The Disciple]

In part, this move to smaller unit sizes is part of modernisation. Such that in the modern era, a unit can have a small size - yet still command tactical significance. Particularly with the advent of modern technology.

 

[dunkleosteus]

A Pioneer isn't really the same thing as a scout, is it? Like, a scout is sent a head of troops to look for territory, etc whereas a pioneer implies settlement or something, no?

I use scouts after the ancient area as military scouts- I'll have my -1 sight siege units ready to take a city and use the scout's movement to hop in vision range of the target city, blast it, then hop out again.

 

[The Disciple]

Pioneer - 1. a person who is among those who first enter or settle a region, thus opening it for occupation and development by others. 2. one who is first or among the earliest in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress: pioneers in cancer research.

I chose that name in keeping with how the units mission is likely to change during the game. As "Pioneers" and "Settlers" tend to work together; but with inherently different missions. The task of the "Settler" is to settle. The task of the Pioneer is to go first and explore - so the name suits this purpose.

 

[Redaxe]

I feel like Sniper Teams are just too small of a unit to really represent in CIV.

In my mind something like an Infantry (or any Melee Land Unit) is at least Regiment or even Brigade sized, you don't have Sniper teams approaching anywhere near that size.

I like the idea of a commando unit. I'd envision it having a range 2-3 "sniper attack" ability that damages infantry units only.
It would also have a laser lock ability that can call in a nearby stealth fighter/bomber to bombard an adjacent unit with a long range cruise missile with neither unit having to actually engage in battle.

Scouts could be changed a bit though - they should not be able to steal workers or settlers but I'd like to see them able to embark and disembark in 1 turn. They should be able to upgrade to a horseman unit too...

 

[elniallo]

Why not just have scouts get an attack/defense upgrade automatically on entering a new era.

 

[inthesomeday]

In the Superpower mod, there's a scout replacement called an explorer, and I'm pretty sure in lots of other big SP buff mods there are mid game scout upgrades too.

I've never found myself really needing to use the explorer; early game, one should already build anywhere from 2-5 scouts that end up lying around not doing anything. Yes, one scout or at most two can serve a very important military service in the later eras, but the most significant thing scouts do is scout.

As long as one or two scouts from the earlier eras make it to the later ones with the vision upgrades, the military purpose of a scout is filled by these units. Depending on terrain, the varying degree of importance denoted strategically to these units can make them some of your most valuable, and therein their fragility becomes an important part of the military strategy in the lategame.

A very slight strength upgrade might be nice, but the only thing a scout upgrade unit should really have increased is its visibility; an ancient explorer might be armed with a knife just as large as any modern cartographer if not larger. Firearms in the early renaissance into the early industrial were too cumbersome to provide much of a realistic battle advantage for a mobile battalion, but optics and improvements in distance measurement made explorers in this era far better at vision scouting than ancient counterparts.

From a gameplay point of view, too, the reason one might build a scouting unit lategame is so that it could gain visibility on military units; optics and visibility increase make more sense from a gameplay standpoint as well as from a historical standpoint rather than a massive strength buff. In the late lategame this purpose is served by air sweeps.