Scouts and early exploration

[void_genesis]

I'm finding myself regretting building scouts in most of my games as they seem to be unable to get very far without being dogpiled by swarms of barbarians. Even if I try to back them up somewhere safe to heal the next time I peek into unknown territory they get trapped and die. Is anyone else experiencing a similar issue with the latest version ?(12 Jan).

 

[Txurce]

I'm finding myself regretting building scouts in most of my games as they seem to be unable to get very far without being dogpiled by swarms of barbarians. Even if I try to back them up somewhere safe to heal the next time I peek into unknown territory they get trapped and die. Is anyone else experiencing a similar issue with the latest version ?(12 Jan).

I don't think the latest version is any different -- I don't recall any changes to barbs.

 

[IcyAngel]

Move your scout one tile at a time, it diminishes the odds of getting trapped.

 

[void_genesis]

Even with moving one tile per turn they either get trapped or end up just hanging around in my territory where their ability to fend of invading barbs is too low to justify them over a plain warrior. I have taken to just building warriors and exploring more slowly.

 

[peterw1987]

Try to hide crossing rough terrain. Especially after you have 1st promotion, running away is easy if you are careful enough

 

[tu_79]

Yeah, I have the same issue since the increased barb density. You can send your scout, but he needs to return quite early and request help from the warrior. Scout+Warrior cannot still clean barb camps, but at least they don't die so easily.
Arguabily, two warriors do better, but the scout fast movement is good in some cases (against archers in rough terrain, coming fast to assist the warrior, healing faster and picking goody huts before other scouts), and he gets better if upgraded to archer. I won't produce two scouts, however.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I build one scout, select the first promotion which doubles movement in jungles&forests. In the vast majority of cases, this enables me to be able to avoid getting it destroyed by barbs.

 

[CrazyG]

I used to love scout first but now much less so. Barbs are the big reason

 

[void_genesis]

A few versions ago I recall the barbs were less likely to attack wandering units early in the game. I'm all for abundant barbs but it would be nice if they didn't always attack on sight for the first 50 turns.

 

[Starrynite120]

I still find scouts very useful. I have them scouting for often 50 turns or more before they get killed. Playing continents I'm often exploring almost the entire continent I'm on before they die, and sometimes I'm able to get them to survive. I'm not finding any problem with barbarians making scouting too difficult.

 

[void_genesis]

I agree with most of the dissenters some of the time but I think part of the problem depends on the nature of the terrain. If you have a map with long snakey continents (more common in the communities map) then it is very easy for a single active barb camp to block any exploration and to get pinned against the coast by barbs and unable to escape. Maybe a simple solution would be to allow one of the first promotions to be the ability to disembark over water tiles?

In a related thought- any takers on removing the requirement for units to enter your territory to pick up the disembarking promotion once the technology is researched? It is another annoying barrier to exploration if you squeeze past an AI territory then get trapped later on until open borders are possible (often 100 turns later). The same isn't true for the crossing ocean tiles promotions, so it seems inconsistent.

 

[tu_79]

I agree with most of the dissenters some of the time but I think part of the problem depends on the nature of the terrain. If you have a map with long snakey continents (more common in the communities map) then it is very easy for a single active barb camp to block any exploration and to get pinned against the coast by barbs and unable to escape. Maybe a simple solution would be to allow one of the first promotions to be the ability to disembark over water tiles?

In a related thought- any takers on removing the requirement for units to enter your territory to pick up the disembarking promotion once the technology is researched? It is another annoying barrier to exploration if you squeeze past an AI territory then get trapped later on until open borders are possible (often 100 turns later). The same isn't true for the crossing ocean tiles promotions, so it seems inconsistent.

I actually prefer the latter. Having a promotion that does the same thing as a technology that is not very far either seems wrong to me. However, I'm not sure if it is intended or is out of the modding abilities to let units gain the ability to embark without coming back.

The terrain is not the only reason. I saw some cases where unsettled lands trapped my scouts between two barb camps and the spawned hatchet barbs.

 

[peterw1987]

I tried the other promotion. +25 def and +5heal. And i am surprised that scout can survive getting ganked by 2 warrior easily. I just fortify my scout in forest, and the 2 warrior kill themselves attacking my scout. So scout is not neceserally weak. You just need to sacrifice early movement bonus for extra def for survivability.

 

[tu_79]

I tried the other promotion. +25 def and +5heal. And i am surprised that scout can survive getting ganked by 2 warrior easily. I just fortify my scout in forest, and the 2 warrior kill themselves attacking my scout. So scout is not neceserally weak. You just need to sacrifice early movement bonus for extra def for survivability.

That works against Brutes, if you stay in rough terrain. But not against the ranged barbs, they do more damage than you can recover.

 

[ElliotS]

Yall need to better control your scouts. They're fine and I consistently get them to level 4 without dying. It's not the ship's fault you crashed it into barbarian island.

Just know where you're most likely to get your face murdered off by unknown barbs. Think "If I walk forward into this space is it likely I'll get trapped?" if the answer is yes then ask "can I afford to lose this scout?" and if not don't be greedy and wait for the ability to embark.

Also remember you don't need to use all your movement points every turn. If the place is risky to walk, sometimes going 1 space at a time and leaving 1 movement to backtrack is worth it.

My favored promotion path is defense and either the first movement promotion at the start for faster leveling/exploration or +1 sight after the third defense promotion. A Survivalism 3 scout is an incredible asset in war, as they can pillage back lines and kidnap workers like a horseman, or provide zone of control and defense for your archers like a highly promoted spearman.

 

[Workerspam]

Yall need to better control your scouts. They're fine and I consistently get them to level 4 without dying. It's not the ship's fault you crashed it into barbarian island.

My experience has been the same. It's not so much that it's hard to keep a scout alive as it's very easy to get your scout killed. If you keep an eye on the terrain, leave yourself an escape route, and don't jump blindly into a concealed area you can usually survive. Scouts are fairly rugged if you don't let them get ganked on all sides.

I normally only lose a scout if I run into another group of them while fleeing injured.

 

[vyyt]

As others said, I think it is much dependent on the map settings. In my games where I add a few extra civs on the map, I rarely lose a scout to barbs at least until the Horsemen start to appear and I almost never take the defensive promos (at least until I get the extra sight). I usually either outrun the barbs or fortify and take some pounding until a warrior arrives to help. And I think that a scout and a warrior make a capable barb camp clearing team at the very early game when you deal just with brutes and archers. I often find myself trapped by AIs though, so I would not mind removing the get into your own territory requirement to gain the embarkation ability.

 

[void_genesis]

If you are using your scout to only move one tile at a time, then why not just send a cheaper, stronger warrior?
And how do you know if territory is escapable before you have revealed it?
Once archers and hand axes turn up even a scout with healing promotions is toast. When your scout is disembarked they are especially vulnerable. And when horses turn up a scout is useless, with a long way to go before it can be upgraded to an explorer.
Would a solution be to give scouts extra movement promotion options from the first tier so they can more easily outrun danger?

 

[tu_79]

If you are using your scout to only move one tile at a time, then why not just send a cheaper, stronger warrior?
And how do you know if territory is escapable before you have revealed it?
Once archers and hand axes turn up even a scout with healing promotions is toast. When your scout is disembarked they are especially vulnerable. And when horses turn up a scout is useless, with a long way to go before it can be upgraded to an explorer.
Would a solution be to give scouts extra movement promotion options from the first tier so they can more easily outrun danger?

Ignoring zone of control is the best way to not get trapped.

 

[ElliotS]

If you are using your scout to only move one tile at a time, then why not just send a cheaper, stronger warrior?
And how do you know if territory is escapable before you have revealed it?
Once archers and hand axes turn up even a scout with healing promotions is toast. When your scout is disembarked they are especially vulnerable. And when horses turn up a scout is useless, with a long way to go before it can be upgraded to an explorer.
Would a solution be to give scouts extra movement promotion options from the first tier so they can more easily outrun danger?

Once again you only move them 1 tile a turn in SOME dangerous areas.

I very rarely lose scouts on any difficulty, including Deity. Please don't suggest balance changes because you're having trouble recognizing dangerous locations for scouts. It's very possible to avoid losing scouts without being too conservative with your exploration.

I do like the idea of all units getting the ability to embark anywhere. It's always seemed dumb and gotten units trapped.