Scouts and Explorers becoming Diplomatic Units

[Txurce]

Just to know will a "pathfinder" finding an upgrading ruins become an archer or a scout ?

Scout.

 

[ElliotS]

Oh yeah, is it possible to allow scouts to upgrade anywhere? The worst is how often they'll get trapped behind another civ's borders while exploring and can't swim around because they need to come back to get embarking.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Well, scout is available at Sailing which grants the ability of embarkation to units once in own territory, and you have to get back to upgrade pathfinder so there isn't any moment of scout without embarkation, is it?

 

[ashendashin]

Alright, hear me out.

To avoid the weirdness of CS bumps for scouts AND to avoid the weirdness of scouts being unable to attack/cs etc., what if we do this:

1.) Give Comanche riders back to Shoshone, give Shoshone units ability to pick goodies for all melee units.
2.) Turn Pathfinder into ancient scout, turn scout into classical scout.
3.) Implement ElliotS's tweaks as follows.

Pathfinder:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -33%, lost with upgrade.
2. 2 Sight base
​

Scout:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -25%.
2. 3 sight base
3. Unlocks at Sailing(?)

Explorer:

1. Sight 3 base
2. Embark Oceans immediately
3. Unlocks at Compass(?)

G

Great idea! I don't see much in the way of a loss here. But what about everything else said in this thread? Would adding anything beyond exploring and barb hunting to the AIs use of scouts going to be an unnecessary slog, regardless of what's proposed?

 

[tu_79]

Well, scout is available at Sailing which grants the ability of embarkation to units once in own territory, and you have to get back to upgrade pathfinder so there isn't any moment of scout without embarkation, is it?

Yes, there is. When finding a goody hut that upgrades the unit. That's why I asked for embark for free.

 

[DarkZero]

Very good solution, but I think its worth to chance the trailblazer promotions to +1 movement, just to avoid the weirdness that is having the scouts that are as fast as warriors on open field but the moment they touch snow they grow rocket boots and travel twice as far.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Very good solution, but I think its worth to chance the trailblazer promotions to +1 movement, just to avoid the weirdness that is having the scouts that are as fast as warriors on open field but the moment they touch snow they grow rocket boots and travel twice as far.

I like that idea, especially since it'd increase their value in mostly flat, regular lands.

EDIT : Wait that'd mean at trailblazer 3 he'd have 5 movement, faster than horses. That makes no sense and at least super fast rough movement is convenient and easy to get used to.

 

[Enginseer]

Someone remind me if Pathfinder ever gets to be an vanilla unit so I can update the E&D Shoshone to have a different decision.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Clear and linear (and separate) unit-line for scouting... I like. Also Comanche Riders are kinda cool in my book so that's nice too

 

[ElliotS]

Very good solution, but I think its worth to chance the trailblazer promotions to +1 movement, just to avoid the weirdness that is having the scouts that are as fast as warriors on open field but the moment they touch snow they grow rocket boots and travel twice as far.

I'd probably only replace trailblazer 1 and 2 with +1, but I think we can discuss promotions after the current round of changes have been played with.

I like that idea, especially since it'd increase their value in mostly flat, regular lands.

EDIT : Wait that'd mean at trailblazer 3 he'd have 5 movement, faster than horses. That makes no sense and at least super fast rough movement is convenient and easy to get used to.

First off: I would only propose to change trailblazer 1 and 2, so they would end at 4 and highly trained horsemen/skirmishers can get to 5.

Secondly, it's not actually unrealistic. A small group traveling lightly on foot can potentially move faster than a large military brigade that needs to feed their horses and such. Especially if the terrain is to their advantage.

 

[Gazebo]

So, without further hype, we're going with the shoshone boogaloo.

G

 

[DarkZero]

So, without further hype, we're going with the shoshone boogaloo.

G

I have been playing this mod for so many years I had to google Comanche raiders...and to my surprise they are a vanilla unit...

 

[Acepox]

My two cents:

Scouts were more useful and enjoyable when you could take the extra sight promotions earlier. I feel as though their main purpose is the extra sight they provide. Only accessing it after 3 promotions is kind of disheartening.

 

[randomnub]

After the initial rush to test them, I now use pathfinders even less than I used scouts before A warrior is cheaper and good enough for scouting the area nearby while providing basic defense.

Any thoughts about making the extra ruin yelds reward promotion free at level 1 for scouts, or lowering their production cost?

 

[CrazyG]

Thoughts on pathfinders and scouts

Good
-the lack of an XP cap for revealing territory is amazing. A unit with 4 sight, 4 movement, and heals every turn is fun
-ruins for an upgrade is fantastic. An early scout is a great weapon for defense and escorting. It can even help bully city states
-scouts themselves serve as a good upgrade and can be used to fight in limited circumstances.

Bad
-treasure hunters is a bad promotion. Many types of ruins are unaffected. 25% isn't much, and I think it only gives 20% (I got 18 culture instead of 15). Its okay for faith ruins but that requires luck, even for Shoshone
-IDK if the penalty against barbarians is really needed, or if it needs to be that high
-scouting units used to have a "no bad ruins promotion", which meant that scouts didn't get crap like border expansion. Thoughts on brining that back?
-I would personally like to scouts also not find maps. A map can often be very useful if I'm not using an early scout, but when I have a scout it frequently just denies me experience, I still travel through that area.

 

[ElliotS]

I advocated for an attacking nerf against everyone except barbarians. This is the opposite of what I wanted on that end. (My scouts were never able to kill barbarians even with survivalist 3, so I didn't think that needed to be affected.)

Can there be a promotion to move through closed borders? Maybe combine it into Trailblazer 3.

I agree with CrazyG on this one.

My proposed changes having played with them for a bit now:
Re-add no bad ruins.
Remove penalty vs bararians. Add attacking penalty towards major civs of equal power.
Either integrate Treasure hunters into no bad ruins or remove it.

 

[tu_79]

The tooltip says penalty vs barbs, but I've noticed it just applies vs non-barbs. It's a typo.

I mostly agree with CrazyG. Pathfinders are OK when they upgrade. Meaning what really is ok it's the scout itself. Thanks to its extra sight and comparable strength.

I'd advocated before for a squished scout type, and I still think that is the better approach. But since you got to the trouble of placing so many scouts units, then let them fight as any other melee unit, with comparable strength, just with different promotions so high leveled scouts are better for scouting than fighting compared to melee.

To avoid using scouts for tanking, prevent fortify.

 

[ElliotS]

To avoid using scouts for tanking, prevent fortify.

This would invalidate the entire survivalism line though...

 

[tu_79]

This would invalidate the entire survivalism line though...

Why? It's +25% to defense whatever you do. So, say that Pathfinder gets 8 CS but no fortify. It would defend at 12 CS with two survivalism promotions. That's quite high even without fortifying. A warrior with two promotions will do more damage, and with fortify can potentially defend better.

 

[Txurce]

So, say that Pathfinder gets 8 CS but no fortify.

So they'll be the only unit in the game that can't fortify?

We both know this is never going to happen.