Scouts and Explorers becoming Diplomatic Units

[kawyua]

Only buffing them once would leave them at 9 CS vs knights and longswordmen. IDK about the longswordsmen, but I think Knights could 1 shot them even at Survivaism 3 and I'm not in favor of that. I don't think they'll be stellar in that timeframe even if buffed at steel, so I'd rather do that.

I'm quite in favor with leaving scouts around 9CS. I think that is good enough.

But even more? To survive even longswordsmen and knights? I don't quite understand why that is important for a scout to be able to do.

Is it not "good enough" with 9cs at that point? I'll probably keep a scout by even at that era

 

[tu_79]

I'd like to see the promotion tree reworked, but it doesn't NEED to be.

I'd also like to see them able to move through closed borders, but they don't NEED to

Ok, ok. We can do it in more steps. So let's ask this: what is the bare minimum we wish to see now?

1. Better survivability, without making them warriors or walls.
2. Better recon role, so they can still be useful after map revealing.

For 1, the most effective is retreating promotions. Having extra sight also helps, but more often than not, the path is blocked with a barb camp full of archers. If you want to explore what's behind you need to stand 2 or 3 turns under heavy ranged fire. The other threat is barb horseman.
Even without extra CS, scouts will be enhanced if they are given the chance to retreat. Other posibility is to have the hiding ability.
1a As suggested by G, 75% melee evasion. As it currently works, it means that unit has 75% of retreating BEFORE melee hits. But 25% of times, the horseman will crush our scout and he is still vulnerable to arrows.
1b This I offered in one of my promotion reworks: 100% of retreating from first hit. No matter if it is a horseman or a ranged attack, the scout will move backwards before he is hit, but only once per turn.
1c Hiding. The more I think about it, the more I like it. There are several ways of making this ability, but here is one: Scouts hide automatically when ending turn in rough terrain, scouts hide manually by fortifying. When hidden the unit cannot be seen unless it is adjacent or is seen by other scouts. When a non-scout unit, in its turn, reveals a hidden enemy scout, this unit loses movement for this turn and/or suffer damage.

For 2, the bare minimun is starting with 1 more sight, so they can do recon work better. With the Hide ability, the recon role is also improved. Explorers allowed to sail oceans is also good.

Movement needs to be addressed, and promotion branches aren't fully functional IMO, but this can be done later.

 

[randomnub]

It sure is efficient but I find scaling CS quite inelegant. Get a similar result dramatically improving the first promotions for +%CS defending outside of friendly territory, or making them start with such one.

Hiding sounds quite funny, but you'd still be able to see them moving in between turns, so the human player pretty much knows when they're near his borders.

 

[tu_79]

It sure is efficient but I find scaling CS quite inelegant. Get a similar result dramatically improving the first promotions for +%CS defending outside of friendly territory, or making them start with such one.

Hiding sounds quite funny, but you'd still be able to see them moving in between turns, so the human player pretty much knows when they're near his borders.

Scaling CS is not needed if the scout avoids being hit.
Valid concern about hiding. The human player still needs to bring a scout or bring two units and sacrifice some damage to be able to attack out scout. If you know a scout is on your back door, just keep it protected so the scout doesn't come and pillage everything, as you should do even without the scout threat. Nothing changes for AI if it knows how to protect the rear from surprise attacks.
In the front lines, placing hiden scouts won't be very effective, he would be dead the second hit.

 

[FoxOfWar]

I actually rather like the idea of Scout being stronger, but not available until slightly later (Fishing or Sailing, for example). Would make exploration a tech choice to a degree.

On the whole though, I would be on board with most changes suggested in this thread, so I'll leave it to you guys to hash out the details.

 

[randomnub]

Scaling CS is not needed if the scout avoids being hit.

Yes I thought it was an alternate option, afterall I previously addressed the issue with survivalist line being next to useless if scouts sport dodge/retreat/invisibility

If you know a scout is on your back door, just keep it protected so the scout doesn't come and pillage everything, as you should do even without the scout threat.

I have yet to get a tile pillaged or a civilian captured by an enemy scout; I remember having workers who could have been easy preys upon a dow but they were ignored, when even a suicidal move (and delete them the turn after) would have been a worth move. AI needs some teaching in that direction, or all these changes are player friendly only.

 

[tu_79]

Yes I thought it was an alternate option, afterall I previously addressed the issue with survivalist line being next to useless if scouts sport dodge/retreat/invisibility

Not necessarily. A better defense will be useful the moment the evasion/1st hit dodge/hiding fails. Evasion has a probability to fail, 1st hit dodge only evades 1st hit, hiding stops working once you are spotted. Either case, sometimes the scout is going to be hit.

I agree that Survival loses appeal compared to Trailblazing if the unit is more resilient per se. But, no promotion changes this time

 

[ElliotS]

I'm quite in favor with leaving scouts around 9CS. I think that is good enough.

But even more? To survive even longswordsmen and knights? I don't quite understand why that is important for a scout to be able to do.

Is it not "good enough" with 9cs at that point? I'll probably keep a scout by even at that era

Surviving and tanking are two different things. Surviving is mandatory for a melee unit to have any use, tanking is not.

As it is you'd have useful scouts from the start to knights, then pretty quickly lose all your well-promoted scouts if you keep trying to use them. Because of knight's high movement, losing your scouts would be almost invariable if you didn't cover them like archers. (which wouldn't make sense to do.)

Therefore your best choice will normally be moving your scouts to your territory until you can upgrade them to explorers as soon as you see a knight. Which is both player-advantaged and anti-fun.

A second upgrade bringing them to 13 cs will make longswordsmen have minor victories and knights major or decisive victories even if they went the tank path. If they didn't longswordsmen will have major victories and knights will have major or decisive victories.

To test compare to a crossbowman's melee survivability. (Also 13 CS) Not very good, but most of the time it isn't 1-shot.

Scaling CS is not needed if the scout avoids being hit.

I think having a balanced CS is a more elegant and AI friendly solution. Teaching the AI how to properly leave the scout open to only 1 attack seems insanely difficult.

 

[randomnub]

This CS upgrade with techs proposal is only a workaround due to the lack of an intermediate unit for which there's no model though.

 

[ElliotS]

This CS upgrade with techs proposal is only a workaround due to the lack of an intermediate unit for which there's no model though.

I think it's superior, because it doesn't require returning to your territory. (which is pretty anti-scout.)

If scouts could upgrade anywhere then I'd say this is the superior option assuming we could find two models. (Though I wouldn't be opposed to simply using the giant death robot model and then the aircraft carrier model. )

 

[CrazyG]

I actually rather like the idea of Scout being stronger, but not available until slightly later (Fishing or Sailing, for example). Would make exploration a tech choice to a degree.

On the whole though, I would be on board with most changes suggested in this thread, so I'll leave it to you guys to hash out the details.

I think the overall goal is to make scouts used a little bit more often, so I would oppose delaying when its available. If it was moved to sailing I would build them dramatically less often. However, if we wanted to place our scout-explorer missing link at sailing, I think it could work quite well.

The thread keeps circling back to 2 suggestions, a tech boosted CS, or an additional unit. The biggest flaw of the additional unit currently is we lack the model to do it, which pretty much stops this idea dead until someone finds or creates one. The flaw of the tech booster is its somewhat inelegant, which can't really be fixed, but currently its the better option, only because the other suggestion just isn't possible

 

[tu_79]

The thread keeps circling back to 2 suggestions, a tech boosted CS, or an additional unit

Are you ignoring abilities to evade/ignore damage on purpose? Is it so awful that it doesn't even deserve consideration?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I'm fine with scout line as it is. I always use one and almost never make more, well unless I feel rushbuying one thanks to a big gold ruin is going to pay off, but it's okay to me. Explorers I never use, unless Authority gives me one then he gets garrison duty. Those guys should really be made giftable to CSs (unless they are and I don't know).

 

[CrazyG]

Are you ignoring abilities to evade/ignore damage on purpose? Is it so awful that it doesn't even deserve consideration?

I did not mean to, I think its an excellent idea very worth considering. But I think we need a CS buff of some sort regardless of what abilities/promotions we give the scout.

Additional evasion tools are very cool ideas that could be great additions, but I personally believe the best way to solve a problem is to hit the problem itself, and I think the problem itself is low CS after other units get their upgrades.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

I actually rather like the idea of Scout being stronger, but not available until slightly later (Fishing or Sailing, for example). Would make exploration a tech choice to a degree.

On the whole though, I would be on board with most changes suggested in this thread, so I'll leave it to you guys to hash out the details.

That's what I'm talking about. But these guys are totally ignoring or accidentally passing through this kind of opinions while debating too aggressive with no making decision.

 

[randomnub]

I already skip the scout and make an additional warrior if the terrain allows, having the first proper scout unit available at a later tech would be the last nail to the coffin imho. For those playing on huge maps tho, a late scout with 3 movespeed sure looks more appealing.

If the scout could net me better ruins/higher starting influence and gold with freshly met city states on the other hand... /thread derailed

 

[ElliotS]

I actually rather like the idea of Scout being stronger, but not available until slightly later (Fishing or Sailing, for example). Would make exploration a tech choice to a degree.

On the whole though, I would be on board with most changes suggested in this thread, so I'll leave it to you guys to hash out the details.

This would mean I almost never build scouts.

Are you ignoring abilities to evade/ignore damage on purpose? Is it so awful that it doesn't even deserve consideration?

It won't solve the problem isthey still have crap CS. I think evade could be best used in promotions if we overhaul those later.

I'm fine with scout line as it is. I always use one and almost never make more, well unless I feel rushbuying one thanks to a big gold ruin is going to pay off, but it's okay to me. Explorers I never use, unless Authority gives me one then he gets garrison duty. Those guys should really be made giftable to CSs (unless they are and I don't know).

This is describing the problem imo. You almost never use more than one and only use them in garrison after the very start. I think that's a problem.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

This is describing the problem imo. You almost never use more than one and only use them in garrison after the very start. I think that's a problem.

I admit there might be a problem, but I already got used to it which might be why I don't find anything wrong with the picture.

 

[ElliotS]

I admit there might be a problem, but I already got used to it which might be why I don't find anything wrong with the picture.

That's how I was until @tu_79 made the original thread on this topic. She(correct me if I'm remembering wrong) was right that there is a problem, even if we don't agree on the details most of the time. ^.^

 

[CrazyG]

That's what I'm talking about. But these guys are totally ignoring or accidentally passing through this kind of opinions while debating too aggressive with no making decision.

If I am one of those guys, I'll try to be less aggressive and explain my point of view. The name of the mod is voice of the people, I make no decision because its not my decision to make. I only try to advocate what I think will improve the game, and advocate against changes I think will cause problems.

I think its very important for scouts to available early on turn 1. Scouts do get built early on, as that is the best time to explore and pursue ruins. If I begin in dense forest or jungle its important that I can build a scout, otherwise I'm very slow to explore the world. I will find fewer ruins and CS (which means the guy who began on more open terrain gets even more). In really dense terrain I will build a scout to be a warrior, because often the faster movement is more valuable than the extra 1 CS. Moving scouts later in the tech tree will often make a bad start even worse, which I am going to advocate against. It also seems to me this will cause scouts to be built much less often, which I also dislike

By the time sailing comes around I will usually have access to horsemen, if I can build a horse I will usually build him instead of a scout. Not only that, but by this point many cities are settled, reducing the area a scout can explore before he gets trapped or enemy lands block me. I think that moving him to sailing causes more problems than it solves. Now putting a 9 CS unit that upgrades from a scout at sailing is a pretty good idea, but it cannot be done without the 3D model. If someone find or makes that model, I'm all for it.

I admit there might be a problem, but I already got used to it which might be why I don't find anything wrong with the picture.

Its not the biggest deal in the world, but I find it lame to delete a unit with 4 promotions so early. Scouts can do some pretty cool things but currently those things aren't good ideas, I think a buff could make them more fun.